Apistogramma cacatuoides "triple red" × "orange flash", what does it look like?

[Don90]

Anyone managed to spawn ap.cacatuoides orange flash and triple red before?

What does the offspring look like?

I may try breeding it, I got an orange flash female from a friend.
(he's reducing bioload)

[ccs]

Maybe a mixture of both?

[Milk]

Maybe a normal colourless A.Caca...

Regards
Milk

[genes]

Apistogramma cacatuoides "triple red" or "orange flash" are all aquarium strains. The wild ones are usually rather plain in colour. I feel the genes of the male seems to be more dominant over the female. So most of your fries should have more "triple red" variants. However, since your female is not of the "triple red" variant. Some colour deterioration should be observed.

If you have a good pair of parents (i.e. non related pair, good colour and patterns), some of the fries will retain the colours. Colour deterioration occurs with inbreeding or crossing of different strains. So you may get fries that do not have full patterns on their fins, or the red turning orange or yellowish. In some cases, the fries lose all the black patterns on the fins and you get an "orange flash".

What i used for my breeding pair previously was a of male "triple red" from HongKong with excellent colour and patterns, and a female which i bought from C328. The first batch of fries that came out pretty much retained the colours, but some light fading is observed. I attribute this to the female being a non "triple red" variant. Also, not all the fries will have the full patterns. Some will have a rather full pattern like the one below.


Some like this piece does not. So do not expect all the fries to be of excellent quality.

[illumnae]

hmm...i actually prefer the look of the 2nd "not so full" one

[benetay]

I don't understand the need to cross 2 hybrid apisto. There are plenty of superb & excellent apisto to offer in the market. Hybrid fishes have lower immunity against various disease. Cross 'wrongly' & you might get pretty deformed fishes.

Just a precaution just in case your liking to apisto dwells after the crossing & have bad experience from it.

Cheers!

[ccs]

Maybe a normal colourless A.Caca...

Regards
Milk

Possible to get back the normal color of original A.Caca using non related domestic strain?

[benetay]

Thats very very difficult, the genes are already all mixed up 'rojak' style(a food mix with sweet sauce,ground peanuts,pineapples,flour sticks,bean sprout,etc)

[genes]

Maybe if you inbreed them for a few generation till they loose all the colours? But a very bad move in my opinion. I think before you reach that state, all your fishes would have suffered from serious deformities.

[ccs]

No intention of doing it just asking out of curiosity. In any case even if wanted to. I believe it will involve many pairs of fishes, lots of times and space. Which i do not have

[benetay]

Thats losing colours which i don't believe it's the same with 'originally' uncoloured ones. Those uncoloured ones do have sheen of metallic blue here and there and the scales are reflective. Those that lost their colours are usually dull & look mutated.

Cheers!

[CacaManiac]

please dont breed those 2. i feel both the aquarium strains look good on their own.

[RHX]

Wilds are still the best!

[genes]

But wild Ap. cacatuoides is dull, greyish in colour. Slight reddish only appears when they are flaring. Still best?

Something like this.

[benetay]

compare to those apisto that lost their colours, don't even have those that you mentioned.

It's a huge difference.

Cheers!

[Texas,Guy]

This is a trpile red female orange flash male mix he's 1.5yrs old and hasn some of the brightest orange color of any of the fry. 99% of the fry all came out with the same color stren.




These guys sold like hot cakes. Even my LFS bought 25 prs off me. This last male pictured his fry produced 50% OF/TR (orange flash triple red ) and 35% TR and even got 15% gold triple and orange flash males and females. With water temp at 80oF the female / male %'s was alittle bit more to the male side but not more then 4 to 5 %. The next fry ( makes F3) produced a even mix also with more gold triples them at 75oF I got more females then males the PH level was the same on all fry. within 5 degrees of each other. The last fry on this line I introduced a trplie red female from another mixed fry differnt parents. Everthing ended up the same with just a higher % of males at PH6.5,temp 80oF (I'd say 60m, 40F ) I've found that with a orange flash female you get more orange in the dorsal and tail fin, Then with a orange flash male I seen more triple red markings. So In my lines I feel the female has more to do with the markings and color then the males.

[Quixotic]

I am not well versed in the genus, but according to this article, "orange flash" is actually derived from "triple red". What this means is that "orange flash" is selective bred from "triple red".

I don't quite understand the genetics part in the article though, except to make out that the "triple red" trait is dominant while the "orange flash" trait is recessive. I must be missing something or reading something wrongly because an "orange flash" pair can throw out "triple red", "double red" and "orange flash" offsprings (which would sound contradicting since the parents have to be homozygous as the "orange flash" trait is recessive)?

Can anyone please help clear the doubts?

[joopsg]

In some case if may end up with orange flash with triple red marking.

[Texas,Guy]

Your right to a point, LOL The orange flash is a sub let of the triple reds Yes. But I've found that every orange flash pr I've spawned has throwed out one or two triple,double or any other red. I've had more of them throw out golds more then reds. Don't know of any breder that uses gold cockatos to in hanes there orange flash fry. But have seen them use gold in the triple reds prs to help with the darking of the red in the triples. So how do I get golds and not reds in the fry. I beleave that there so many differnt colors of the Ap. cockato that the lines in what I call stock shock. So many reds and so many golds to make the flash that there's no ture line in the male or female and your going to end up with just about any color differnts like triple,double,single. orange flash, golds or yellows at any time out of any fry. Anless you make your own line of orange flash and bred it to ture orange flash females only for at least ( no telling how many times to keep it orange flash ) your going to get the mixed frys from the prs. All this is ( IMO and not fact ) but I have bred them for the last 9yrs so it's some knowledge of the line.

[celticfish]

@ quixotic,

I believe its all about the strain being able to breed "true" (all fry look identical to parent fish).
Recessive or dominant genes doesn't guarantee there are no throw-backs in the brood.
Once inserted the gene is still "there".
You just get more fry with the dominant gene than fry with reccessive ones.
I find unstable (not true breeding) genes a problem caused by trying to get a "new" strain quick or a lack of understanding of genetics.
Hence, you might get "magnificent" individuals specimens.
But try breeding them and the resultant fry look like a fruit salad.
In order to breed true the "magnificent" specimen would take a lot of hard work by the breeder...

An example I like to use is Jack Wattley's turquiose discus breeding program.
My recollection of his breeding program was this...
He started with and maintained 20 similar but separate lines while trying to perfect the strain.

Inbreeding was used to "strengthen" the colour and the full-body striping.
On a side note, a german breeder claimed that after five generation of inbreeding he found unacceptable fry deformities.
When that happens they "out cross" to the base line to rejuvenate the genetics.
However when an out cross happens the exact gene/trait that you wanted to enhance gets diluted setting you back.
This was where Jack's twenty lines came in to play for him.
He didn't have to really "out cross" totally to the base fish (probably royal greens/blue) as he had twenty lines to choose from/swap with.
I'm sure he culled the fry he couldn't use while he was at it instead of selling the fruit salad fry.
The final result was a true breeding turquoise discus strain.
And many people (including me) were willing to pay a premium for his stock for the genes they have.


Regarding the article...
It says that for triple reds to throw out an orange flash fry it had to have had an orange flash parent in its genetic makeup.
In other words, "pure" triple reds breed true.
But if the triple red had a parent with the reccessive orange flash genes it can throw out orange flash fry.
btw the parent need not look like an orange flash to have the gene just a parent with orange flash genes.

To illustrate the above, you cross a "pure" triple red with an orange flash.
Then you use a fry from the above pair that looks like a triple red and mate it with another "pure" triple red.
Successive generations from the above pair can now produce orange flash fry.
And it will be virtually impossible for you to eliminate the orange flash genes totally.
Now you know why there is a big opposition to GM food being grown (genetically modified).

A final point, "how do can you tell if you have a 'pure' triple red?".
As a hobbyist, its practically impossible!
Which is what totally turn me off the "latest" discus "strain" when I got back to the hobby almost 3 years ago.
Nothing breeds true...