Blue gularis breeding(and egg survival)

[nonamethefish]

I will be trading one of my bags of N. orthonotus for a pair of young blue gularis and a bit of cash to boot. I read a few websites and it seems that the main problem is that the eggs tend to fungus or otherwise have problems. My water is probably around ph 7.5 moderately hard.

Anyone here with experience with these mind pitching in?

[RonWill]

SJO are switch spawners, in that they will lay eggs in both plants and peat. Egg incubation is considerable longer, taking up to 2months, than most Fundulopanchax eg. gardneri in about 2weeks (29ºC).

When I had the SJOs, their freshly collected eggs were dipped into a mild solution of methylene blue for the first few days. Those that didn't make it will be very obvious and they generally take longer to sink, if you swirl the water around.

Good eggs are then transferred to fresh tap water and with daily water changes, the blue stain will slowly clear up. I would then transfer the known-good eggs to either peat or water incubation for a month.

If in peat, check periodically until at least 90% of the eggs are eyed-up before wetting.

For water incubation, weekly water changes simulates embryol development and maintain a clean environment for the eggs.

More than once, I had to 'force-hatch' SJO eggs. Some simply won't make it if you leave them alone.

Just my 2cents worth.

[whuntley]

When I had the SJOs, their freshly collected eggs were dipped into a mild solution of methylene blue for the first few days.

snip...

More than once, I had to 'force-hatch' SJO eggs. Some simply won't make it if you leave them alone.

Just my 2cents worth.

My US$0.02 is worth more than your SG tuppence, Ron, so here goes some free advice (worth every penny you pay for it, too).

You are causing the need for forced hatching, I suspect.

Methylene blue is a mild tanning agent and has the tendency to "tan" the chorion. That is, it toughens the egg "shell" and can make the baby have trouble getting out.

Its only useful function is as an anti-bacterial and oxygen-transport enhancer. Despite many books saying otherwise, it has no effect on fungus that I have ever been able to detect.

Viable, fertilized eggs don't get bacterial attacks or fungus (which normally is just a clean-up crew to remove eggs already dead). Fungus never spreads from dead eggs to viable ones unless conditions are so filthy the bacteria are killing the live eggs.

If I want bacteria-free hatch water, I add a sprig or two of Java moss and the filter-feeding infusoria quickly clear up any freely motile bacteria. Once in a great while, I will use a 50/50 mix of acriflavin and methylene blue, but diluted down so far it is a very very pale green and not strong enough to perceptibly dye the eggs. Bottom line is to be careful about agents capable of cross-linking proteins, as they can make hatching quite difficult.

Of course dye is not needed when using peat incubation, because the anti-bacterial action of wet, boiled and rinsed peat is quite adequate to protect any fertile, living eggs from outside bacteria. Any eggs that fungus were dead.

I tend to use wetter peat for the semi-annuals than I do for the true annuals like Nothos and SA species. I haven't raised SJO, so could be mistaken. Other large Fp. have done well for me when the peat is wet enough to just be shiny. It should be just barely capable of being fluffed up, but easily drips, if squeezed.

YMMV

Wright

[RonWill]

You are causing the need for forced hatching, I suspect

heheh... I should have seen that come coming :wink:

Wright, it is my personal experience that contrary to your "viable, fertilized eggs don't get bacterial attacks or fungus", they do.

I've seen healthy developing eggs go bad, while others in the same batch develop to hatching.

You've emphazized often enough that tanning agents toughens the chorion but since subsequent water changes dilutes and clears off the 'stains', will that still make a difference? At least with this method, I increase my chances of more viable eggs.

BTW, without the initial 'tanning', even peat's anti-bacterial properties don't help much either. Fellow forumers who bought eggs-in-peat from overseas can attest to fungicized eggs. (eggs were allegedly checked as viable before packing)

Perhaps most breeders spawn their SJO too young or they're just 'less fertile'?

[whuntley]

The key word is "viable," and you may be right that eggs from young parents can be killed much easier. That certainly seemed to be true with other Fp. I have kept.

I have seen many fungused eggs in peat, but still believe they were dead before becoming fuzzy. From the age and conditioning of the parents, to the conditions in the aquarium/hatching container, there are a host of factors that can prevent an egg from surviving. I have just never been able to prove that fungus was a cause. I have seen one go fuzzy in a cluster while all the rest developed and hatched, if conditions were good. [I have seen all become fuzzy if the water conditions were marginal, too.]

I have still learned by experience to be super careful about using dyes. The water change later does not unlink those proteins that were cross linked (tanned). Potassium permanganate and formaldehyde are two others that can cause the same sort of problem if used at the wrong time.

Wright

[brett]

Ron .

i think I lost all my SJO`s eggs . All the preparations for their 3ft tank has just gone down the drain . Now I am left with a done up tank with no SJOs .

Saw the eyes in the eggs and soak them together with the mop in a small 1ft tank filled with peat water . The next day did some water change but yet to see any small fry swimming than the third day the eggs on the mop all turn white .

[RonWill]

Bernard, you are easily the eighth hobbyist having problems with SJOs but before you throw or sterilize that mop, check for surviving eggs.

Pick these out and force hatch. Good luck.

[nonamethefish]

Thanks for the input guys! I may split the eggs 50/50 between the two choices. If I end up with only a few I will go with peat incubation.

[TyroneGenade]

Wright, it is my personal experience that contrary to your "viable, fertilized eggs don't get bacterial attacks or fungus", they do.

I've seen healthy developing eggs go bad, while others in the same batch develop to hatching.

I Ronnie, hate play Devil's advocate (scientist) but do you actually have evidence that the bacteria killed a healthy egg? I have had eggs die in a acriflavin/Meth. Blue mix with no sign of fungus following the death of the egg. I put this down to developmental problems in the egg. The egg develops and then suddenly realizes it has made a terrrible mistake and dies.

This sounds a bit "way out" but it is an accepted phenomenon in developmental biology. Development can go wrong and that normally means the death of the embryo... or you get a terrible mutant fish (which also happens).

I have had good eggs survive and hatch while being totally surrounded and coverred in a dead egg fungus mass. Likewise, I have raised 100s of angelfish fry that could barely move on the spawning substrate for all the fluffy fungus that surrounded them (mom and pop weren't particularly efficient... or maybe they just didn't think it important).

Unfortunately no one has actually investigated this scenario so both your and Wright's opinions are just that: opinions. I gather mine isn't worth much more either.

tt4n

[RonWill]

I Ronnie, hate play Devil's advocate (scientist) but do you actually have evidence that the bacteria killed a healthy egg? I have had eggs die in a acriflavin/Meth. Blue mix with no sign of fungus following the death of the egg. I put this down to developmental problems in the egg. The egg develops and then suddenly realizes it has made a terrrible mistake and dies

eh Tyrone, we all play Devil's advocate at some time but I was just sharing my personal experience. Of course, it's nothing definitive or scientifically conclusive, although I would really like to know why as well.

I experimented with some fresh eggs collected from a young pair of A. BIT 'Ijebu Ode' and dunked these in MB solution. 9 out of 10 eggs went fuzzy-ball on me. I reckon that the male (or pair) isn't sexually matured yet.

With another batch of GAR 'Lokoja' eggs, no amount of methylene blue could stop them from developing normally and the resultant fry were just as healthy. These didn't seem to have any problems hatching out either... no 'shell-stucked-in-head' or dead eyed-up eggs either

Unfortunately no one has actually investigated this scenario so both your and Wright's opinions are just that: opinions. I gather mine isn't worth much more either

It's worth every penny of free advice tho :wink:

[TyroneGenade]

For me, part of the problem in any experiment is handling the eggs. I feel handling the eggs causes a lot of damage be it mechanical or infecting the eggs with bacteria.

GAR eggs are far tougher than BIT eggs IMHO. For example, when I used to pick australe eggs, I would have terrible losses. When I simply moved the mop with eggs results were much better (I got about 60 fry from a week's collection of eggs every 3rd day) compared to 7 fry from hand picking. Also, when sending eggs by post my best success has been had simply sending the damp mop. Picked eggs sent in peat just never seem to make it.:-(

tt4n

[whuntley]

For me, part of the problem in any experiment is handling the eggs. I feel handling the eggs causes a lot of damage be it mechanical or infecting the eggs with bacteria.

GAR eggs are far tougher than BIT eggs IMHO. ...

tt4n

I agree and am convinced it is very species dependent. I have never done well with picked ANN eggs, but they do great in a "natural" tank with lots of hanging Ceratopsis roots, fibrous peat, o/e.

Since I like to pick eggs and see them develop in Petri dishes, should we start a list of species whose eggs should never be handled?

Tyrone started with AUS and I have added ANN. What others should stay in the mop/peat without finger oils, tweezer scars, etc.? [It is interesting that both species are estuarine in original habitat, often found in somewhat salty waters.]

Lampeyes are a special case, and I have found many need extra-high oxygen levels to develop well. With Procatopus aberrans, bubbling eggs in a pilsner-style glass worked. With Pantanodon stuhmanni I found that a large shallow container, like a plastic sweater box, was needed for significant hatch and survival. Their saltier water doesn't support a lot of dissolved oxygen.

I have found that spawning some Nothos over sand was deadly to their eggs, while others tolerated it well. It was so long ago that I don't feel good about suggesting which species did what. I do recall the sharp differences, tho, even with "soft" Jersey Green Sand.

BTW, I did not claim that live eggs never die. I have killed my share and then some.

I just expressed serious doubt that fungus ever killed an egg. Because it grows so quickly on dead tissue (and is so obvious), it often follows the opaqueness of a decaying egg so fast that some jump to the conclusion that it was the cause of the egg's mortality. That's all. I'm not convinced.

Wright

[RonWill]

I would have terrible losses. When I simply moved the mop with eggs results were much better (I got about 60 fry from a week's collection of eggs every 3rd day) compared to 7 fry from hand picking. Also, when sending eggs by post my best success has been had simply sending the damp mop. Picked eggs sent in peat just never seem to make it.:-(

Tyrone, I picked eggs because I ran out of spawning mops but now that there's 30+ new mops, all boiled and ready (and my fingers hurt), I'll go back to the 'mop transfer' method and update any new observations.

I agree that handling eggs, even with clean tweezers, drastically reduces the chances of good eggs (or have somehow damaged them) but I do see a pattern developing, for some species at least.

AUS and P. gertrudae never give me any picking problems. They just breed like rabbits. BIV, OTOH, are well... bluddy stingy.

I agree and am convinced it is very species dependent. I have never done well with picked ANN eggs, but they do great in a "natural" tank with lots of hanging Ceratopsis roots, fibrous peat, o/e

Can you really see ANN eggs Dammit, I can barely see the fry! My ANN setup has potted vals, najas, salvinia natans, large clumps of java moss and alot of benign neglect (the less I fiddle with them, they work harder).

Since I like to pick eggs and see them develop in Petri dishes, should we start a list of species whose eggs should never be handled?

I'll add BIT, SPL and most 'Chromaphyosemion' to the list. These does best with mop transfers than picking or damp-mop incubation. Water incubation in clean water in the dark seems to give the best results.

[TyroneGenade]

Interesting remark about the AUS coming from esturine habitats. I found that adding salt to the water in which they were spawning did kind of boost egg survival even after being picked.

Some people have no trouble picking AUS eggs so I guess it may depend on who is doing the picking...

I found Chromaphyosemion always did much better for me in a permanent setup. As long as you kept removing fry the parents kept producing.

Epiplatys dageti is another "touchy" customer. Never had much luck picking eggs. Simply toss in some J. moss, move it and watch as fry simply appear from between the fronds of the moss.

So far I have had good survival for eggs of Fp. marmoratus and GAR N'Sukka.

tt4n

[nonamethefish]

I received the pair and they are lovely fish. He claims they are a young pair but they are probably like 2x the size I expected!(and at the size I envisioned a full grown sjoestedti). The male doesn't have the famous 3 forked tail but it looks like he may gain one with age.

To change the course of this interesting topic-what are your opinions on the affects of hard water on egg fertilization?

[brett]

Ron

if you need spawning mops drop me a p.m . i will be glad to give you .

cheers

[nonamethefish]

Has anyone here spawned these guys using the so called natural method? I have a ten gallon that is filled with java moss and I was wondering if it would be any different from mops if the fish were to spawn there and then I either removed parents or removed the plants.

Thanks! After observing these guys eat both what I've fed them and what I'd rather them not eat(oh well...tons of monty fry running around and juvies too big for them as of now) I'm sure leaving the adults in the tank is out of question!

[RonWill]

Joseph, if your plants are mobile, ie. potted or in a clump, remove them to incubate separately. [I'd rather let the breeding pair remain in familiar environment]

SJOs have big mouths and a matching appetite at that, so I won't trust the safety of the fry with them. If more survivors is not your goal, then I guess it doesn't matter.

[nonamethefish]

Joseph, if your plants are mobile, ie. potted or in a clump, remove them to incubate separately. [I'd rather let the breeding pair remain in familiar environment]

SJOs have big mouths and a matching appetite at that, so I won't trust the safety of the fry with them. If more survivors is not your goal, then I guess it doesn't matter.

Gotcha. Its one of those "wall to wall" java moss/najas/ a bit of hair algae/ java fern/ and everything else.

[nonamethefish]

Well, the male just emptied the female of eggs. The pair took a few hours to get down to business however. They didn't use the java moss but most of the eggs ended up in the sediments/sand at the bottom. I will be using an airline tubing to vac the spots I saw the most action in and see if I recover any eggs.

I'll post updates as they come.