Fries

[hobgoblin]

Hi folks,

I've got a question- What would you do?

Okay if you had a fry which just hatched and has been struggling with the egg shell for hours on end, what would you do?

Will this be detrimental to their health? Is it a traumatic experience that some may turn out to be belly sliders, or bear some form of disability?

I did what came naturally- probed it with my tweezers, gently of course. I didn't succeed and thought it too delicate a work. So should it be left alone till it frees itself on its own?

Regards,
Andrew

[XRTG]

hi,

hope your fries are ok.
what does the term belly sliders means? is it used only for killies?

lance

[whuntley]

Andrew,

When that happens to me, I tend to use one of the force-hatch methods.

Put the egg(s) into a test tube or other small vial. Breathe heavily into it to slightly increase the amount of CO2 and cap tight. Carry it in an inner pocket, close to my body for an hour or two, where the warmth, CO2 and agitation help to dissolve the chorion.

Alternatively, add some microworms to the hatch water to do similar things.

I'm sure others have their own techniques, but I agree with you that mechanical surgery is too coarse for comfort.

Wright

Lance,
Belly-sliders generally refers to fry who never quite develop a proper swim bladder and thusly must spend their time scooting around on their bellies on the bottom of the tank. Such fry are generally quite weak and most often do not develop into breeding adults. The term isn't always applied to killies, in fact, I had almost always associated it with Betta splendens before I started hanging out on this site and there is a Pike Cichlid in the saxatilis group that is (was once?) known as Crenicichla sp. "Bellyslider" because of its bottom-hugging ways. (C. sp. "Bellyslider" is often sold as C. sedentaria, I am told, but it seems that this has not quite been resolved at present.)

[XRTG]

Lance,
Belly-sliders generally refers to fry who never quite develop a proper swim bladder and thusly must spend their time scooting around on their bellies on the bottom of the tank. Such fry are generally quite weak and most often do not develop into breeding adults. The term isn't always applied to killies, in fact, I had almost always associated it with Betta splendens before I started hanging out on this site and there is a Pike Cichlid in the saxatilis group that is (was once?) known as Crenicichla sp. "Bellyslider" because of its bottom-hugging ways. (C. sp. "Bellyslider" is often sold as C. sedentaria, I am told, but it seems that this has not quite been resolved at present.)

thanks matthew.

[hobgoblin]

Wright,

I did as you advised. As silly as I am, I transferred the eggs into a vial using a pair of tweezers. Two eggs were ruptured in the process, and the fry could be seen wriggling till it's tail finally emerged from the shell. I added a small clump of moss into the vial, and placed it under fluorescent light. In addition to the CO2 from my breath whilst I exhaled into the vial, I was hoping that as the moss photosynthesize, whatever minute small amounts of CO2 produced would aid in the force hatch.

[stormhawk]

I've used tweezers to help a fry struggle free of an eggshell before. Only problem is that these struggling fry are usually malformed fry. Once I helped a fry struggle free, only to see it finally die a few minutes later. Guess what? It has one eye bigger than the other and its head was malformed.

[whuntley]

Wright,

I did as you advised. As silly as I am, I transferred the eggs into a vial using a pair of tweezers.

If I cannot pour eggs and water in, I usually use a dropper designed for baby medicine. Some of our drugstores give them away free as ad specialties, and they are great for feeding bbs and moving eggs and even tiny fry. [BTW, the plural of fry is still fry when discussing fish. "Fries" is semi-slang for "French Fried Potatoes."]

Two eggs were ruptured in the process, and the fry could be seen wriggling till it's tail finally emerged from the shell. I added a small clump of moss into the vial, and placed it under fluorescent light. In addition to the CO2 from my breath whilst I exhaled into the vial, I was hoping that as the moss photosynthesize, whatever minute small amounts of CO2 produced would aid in the force hatch.

The moss will absorb, not produce, CO2, if there is any light available. It will only release CO2 under conditions of respiration, in relatively total darkness. It is still an excellent idea for it should contain some infusoria which is primo first food. Add a tiny drop of Liquifry #1 to the moss to cause an infusoria bloom.

Good luck,

Wright

[hobgoblin]

Wright,

I appreciate the advice. Plants respire in darkness thus absorbing CO2- was absent minded whilst typing and got it the other way round, pardon me.

I was clearing some mouldy eggs earlier, and I came across a few which were eyed-up. The fry is still intact (alive) but the egg is mouldy. How should I handle such a scenario? I believe there is still a glimmer of hope, so would breaking the egg in a delicate manner aid in the process?

Regards,
Andrew

[Lorraine]

I would try the forced hatching method outlined by Wright above.
I also use this method when fry are stuck in the egg, it has been my experience that fry having trouble getting out of the egg are usually hatching a little early and still have a little yolk sac.

[hobgoblin]

Folks I herald bad grave news. Of all the EBT eggs that I got (about 25-30), only two hatched and the fry are doing well. To begin with, 80% of the eggs were eyed up, and these 2 that hatched, hatched shortly after I picked them from a spawning mop and incubated them in water (as with the rest of the eggs). The rest, even eyed-up eggs turned mouldy. So far my experience with non-annuals have been quite disastrous. The items used in handling the eggs were sterilised with boiling water. I used spawning mops for egg collection, and peat for incubation. Now I am switching solely to peat, and hoping that I'll get a better hatch rate.

Are non-annual eggs that susceptible to fungus and mould? I believe that somewhere in the process where the egg was picked, there could be some contamination. Is there a 'proper method' where egg picking is involved, including sanitation?

As for peat, it's hard to spot the eggs in them, and I think this is a major drawback, especially when I have no inkling if my Fp. Gar Lafia spawned in them. So, specifically for this species, how long should I leave the spawning bowl in the tank before I bag the peat up for incubation? I know this is a debatable question, but I would like to have a rough estimate.

Thanks,
Andrew

[turaco]

Andrew,

I don't seem to have any problem picking australe EBT eggs with bare hands. The thing is, why do you need to pick them? Chances are, if you leave them on the mop, they will hatch sooner or later. If you can't help yourself with the 'harvesting' instinct, go for the eyed-up ones. What I've noticed as compare to the aquarium strain AUS, some of the EBT fry hatch prematurely, with the york sack still full. Not swimming, you have to leave them alone for a couple more days before they start swimming. Maybe your EBT male needs some Viagra

[hobgoblin]

Just an update.
I found an additional egg, and it just hatched shortly after. So that brings to the total number of surviving fry to 3 which in my opinion is rather pathetic. But in reading the previous post dating back to 2001, where others tried eggs of different species numbering several dozens, and only having few survivors- I feel more encouraged to persevere.

They are fed with infusoria, and coepods harvested from an 'infusoria tank'. Water isn't green yet, but it's filled with ram's horn (courtesy of Ron), pond snail, moss and residual waste from my internal filter sponge. I suppose that if their stomachs' aren't transparent then they have probably been feeding.

Andrew