Introduction

[dageti]

greetings to all,

my name is Francesco, I am from Italy and I am very pleased to be a member of this forum. I have been interested in the natural world all my life, I am not new to freshwater fish keeping - I currently have threadfin rainbowfishes, white cloud minnows and Endler's livebearers - but I have only recently started to keep killies. I had long regarded them as demanding, difficult - not to mention hard to find - fishes but eventually I decided to try my luck and they are turning out to be very exciting and rewarding fishes to keep.

I started off with Epiplatys dageti monroviae, which I can't wait to breed as soon as new females arrive at my local shop. my latest acquisition is a trio of Aphyosemion australe 'gold' that a kind friend gave to me. they were temporarily placed in a community tank and, much to my delight, the male was mating with both females within minutes after release, and has been mating almost non-stop since. I took several pictures and may be posting them on the forum later with your permission.

prior to receiving the trio of AUS, I bought 2 pairs of Nothobranchius korthausae 'Kwachepa' TZL 01/53 from an Italian fellow fishkeeper. I placed them in a 15 lt tank and one male even attempted to get the female to lay eggs on the bare glass bottom on day one, before I had put the peat containers in. sadly, on day three I found them to be infested with the Camallanus worms. I have been literally overdosing the tank with levamisole over the last 36 hours but it won't kill the worms. the fish are still lively and eating BBS as usual but Camallanus are nasty parasites that I must get rid of at all costs. I might have to lower the pH in the tank. could anyone please confirm that levamisole is ineffective at pH above acid, because it is hydrolized in neutral/basic solutions? I have been reading the extensive thread about treating Camallanus but couldn't find any references to levamisole efficacy as related to pH.

my warmest thanks to all who will share their knowledge and experience with me. I did a lot of web research on killifish and this forum has plenty of valuable information, I will try to avoid asking questions on issues that were dealt with in past threads, and I trust you will bear with newbieness and occasionally stunted english.

the italian killie scene is still pretty small, but it has a national association and the annual convention is taking place on this very weekend. I am not a member myself, but Mr. Tyrone Genade (whom I want to acknowledge for kindly accepting to correspond with me) I think is acquainted with several outstanding Italian killie experts and will testify to their efforts, although we don't have a rational species exchange/maintenance programme such as you have. I am sure I will learn a lot under your guidance.


best regards,

francesco

[stormhawk]

Hello Francesco and welcome to the forum.

About the Camallanus problem, it would be best for you to treat the fishes in a separate bare-bottomed (no gravel) hospital tank and refrain from feeding them for this period of treatment. I have never had a problem with these worms so perhaps the rest might be able to help you.

The AIK is a pretty good association except that I don't get alot of details through their website. Perhaps by contacting Stefano Valdesalici, you might be able to get into their network. I believe Tyrone himself would gladly help you on this issue.

That aside, the Italians have some very nice fish that I would like to get. Sadly I know none of the killie keepers from the AIK.

[timebomb]

Hi, Francesco,

It's always a pleasure to welcome newcomers like you. I'm delighted to read the detailed introduction you wrote about yourself and how you got into the hobby. If only more would do the same when they come into this forum.

I'm surprised to hear the levamisole you're using isn't effective against the Camallanus worms. Are you sure you made the correct diagnosis? Camallanus worms spread like wildfire and if they are in one of your tanks, chances are they are in all your tanks. Take a look at this old thread to see pictures of fish infected with Camallanus.

Contrary to what Jianyang wrote, it's always best to treat for Camallanus by medicating the tank the fish are in. If you remove the fish to a hospital tank, you will find they will be infected with the worms again when you put them back into their original tank. From my own experience with the worms, I know it's very important to dissolve the levamisole into a solution first before pouring it into the tank. If you put the levamisole powder directly into the tank, it won't be as effective.

As for your A. australes, I hope you have been collecting the eggs. If you leave the eggs in the tank with the parents, chances are you will never see fry. I have no proof of this and it's all circumstantial evidence but I believe adult australes eat their fry.

You don't need permission to post pictures to this forum so please feel free to show us your fish.

Tyrone is one of our regulars in this forum and his input is always highly-valued. I'm glad he recommended this forum to you.

Loh K L

[dageti]

thanks for your welcome.

stormhawk:
I am glad you know about the AIK, I agree that their website could use some additional content, their newsletters are excellent though. Mr. Valdesalici surely is a brilliant researcher and collector whom I do not have the pleasure of knowing personally, but I do know other killie keepers. as I said I am not an AIK member, but if there is anything I could do to help you get in contact with people for trading the species that you are looking for, let me know.

timebomb:
I am absolutely positive that it is Camallanus, the thread-like, bright red worms can be clearly seen hanging from the anus of the fish. yes, I have been treating the whole tank (no gravel, some floating hornwort) because I knew that otherwise the parasites would have reappeared. the fact is, they never disappeared. levamisole is available here in liquid form (10 ml vial), I diluted it in RO water before injecting the tank. I'm shocked that it didn't work even at such high dosages. as I said, I think the problem may be that the pH in the tank is too high and the drug, which is acid, reacts and gets hydrolized. the fish now have sunken bellies and I don't know how much longer they can survive, only 1 out of 4 apparently has no worms. I need not tell you how awful it is to watch your fish slowly being killed and to feel utterly powerless.

I didn't collect the eggs that my australe females have been laying, as they are still in the heavily planted 'temporary' community tank. they have been mating literally all over the place so I guess what I will do is, leave the eggs where they are (I couldn't spot them if I tried) and hope that some of the fry will survive by hiding in the thick vegetation. I haven't gotten round to setting up their dedicated tank yet: rescue efforts, work, and persuading my parents that I haven't lost my sanity entirely to the fishkeeping hobby (well, not yet) have taken up pretty much all of my time. I will be posting some pictures as soon as I figure out how to upload them into my web space. come to think of it, I need to get me a web space first.

many thanks again and best regards,

francesco

[hobbit6003]

Hi Francesco,

How high was your levamisole dosage? So far, the highest dosage I've used is about 15ppm. In one instance, I had to repeat twice before I finally gotten rid of the worm.

Have you tried other anthelminthics like Flubendazole or Mebendazole?

Currently, I've gotten a tank of N. rachoviis which has camallanus infestation, and I'm using another anthelminthics call Thiabendazole, and after 2 out of 3 instructed daily dosing, all but one have recovered their appetite and anal inflammation have also subsided with no more worms seen hanging out.

Cheers,

Kenny

[dageti]

hi Kenny,

my initial dosage was 1 mg/lt but I've kept adding drug to the tank water since and no water changes so it could well be 5 times as much now.

I did some research after reading your post, here is what I found.

mebendazole in Italy is commercially available under the rather appalling name Vermox: tablets, each containing 100 mg of mebendazole.

flubendazole is mainly available as flubenol and also comes in tablets (220 mg) but is harder to find and a bit pricey. (it is also used as a poultry and waterfowl wormer under the name flubenvet, which comes in 12 kg bags. handy, huh?)

both drugs require prescription.

thiabendazole is a more complicated affair, the information I found on the web is a bit confusing, the drug is apparently not easy to find. what is it called in Singapore (assuming you buy it at local drug stores)?

at the moment 1, possibly 2 out of 4 fishes are worm-free, or at least look so. I am running out of levamisole now and I am not sure whether I should continue using it or try mebendazole instead. I'll probably go for the latter as it is relatively cheap and easy to find. I wouldn't know how to dose it, though.

I am glad you were able to cure your rachovii, and it gives me hope. warmest thanks for your help.

regards,

francesco

[hobbit6003]

Hi Francesco,

Dosage of 1mg/l, which is equivalant to 1ppm, is way too low. It also may not be a good idea just to add abit at a time. The effect will not be a cumulative one, since they will degrade over time, and probably will not attain the desired dosage.

In Singapore, you can buy Vermox over the counter at the pharmacy, whislt I've not found flubendazole here, perhpas the only way to obtain this is to go to the vet. But with Vermox, it contains mebendazole in a syrup suspension, and I'm not too enthusiastic about using it.

As for Thiabendazole, well, I found it to be available over at one of the fish shop I frequent. It is manufactured under the company called Zagro (www.zagro.com), and is touted as effective treating bacterial enteritis and anthelminthic for fishes.

Cheers,

Kenny

[timebomb]

Francesco,

Kenny knows best but I would suggest you stick with the levamisole. My own experiences with this medication is that it's very effective. I'm sloppy so when I dose, I don't really measure how much I use. I simply estimate the amount of powder needed. It's important though, to keep an eye on the fish after the medication has been applied. If you find them breathing heavily at the surface, do an immediate water change.

Levamisole is so effective the worms drop to the bottom of the tank about an hour after medication.

Loh K L

[dageti]

first of all,

my apologies to Jianyang and Loh for addressing them using their forum nicknames instead of their real names, I forgot. italian web habits die hard.

Kenny:

I now realize that it was my fault, not the drug's. I was puzzled on researching, I gathered information from both italian and international sources with recommended dosages varying from as low as 0.02 mg/l to 20 mg/l, so I figured I'd better keep it low at first and add more later. but you were right: the drug would not build up in the tank water but simply decay and be ineffective. it may also be that the powder form that you have is stronger than our liquid form, or that it allows you to obtain higher concentrations.

I think I will do as Loh suggests and stick with the levamisole, using your recommended dosage of 15 mg/l and hoping to see the worms drop dead to the bottom within hours, and only try mebendazole if that doesn't work. I'd be using the tablets, we have the syrup suspension too but there are too many other components in it that might pollute the tank, interfere with the cure or harm the fish.

one more question to Loh: should I start a new thread to show some pictures of my killies, or could I just post them here? and if so, should the thread title be edited?


thank you all very much. best regards,

francesco

[dageti]

I am dreadfully sorry, somehow I messed with the browser and my message was posted 3 times. I don't know what happened really. I wish I could delete the extra posts, but I am afraid an administrator will have to take care of that for me.

francesco

[zmzfam]

I am dreadfully sorry, somehow I messed with the browser and my message was posted 3 times. I don't know what happened really. I wish I could delete the extra posts, but I am afraid an administrator will have to take care of that for me.

francesco

Hello Francesco, I'm a bit late in welcoming you but still welcome to the forum.

I've taken care of the extra posts.

Hope you enjoy the stay here.

[dageti]

hello Zulkifli,

thanks for your welcome and for getting rid of the excess posts. I will try not to mess with the refresh button when posting in the future!

I must say that I am already enjoying this forum very much, everybody has been kind and helpful. I have just uploaded a few pictures of my australe and a close-up of my E. dageti monroviae into the public gallery, I am proud to show my first killies to you all. can I have the pictures organized into a folder somehow?

best regards,

francesco

[stormhawk]

Hello Francesco,

Here's the link to your own album within the Public Galleries.

http://www.killies.com/forum/modules...view_album.php

[timebomb]

Francesco,

It's okay. There's no need to apologise for addressing us by our nicknames. Over here, the culture is quite different from other forums. We encourage all forum users to use real names and as you have probably noticed, most of the regulars do.

It's always better to start a new thread when you want to talk about something off-topic. It's also important to use relevant subject headings so as to make it easier when we use the "search" button.

I took a look at your pictures in the gallery and again, I like to remind you that if you want to see Aphyosemion australe fry, you must remove either the eggs or the parents. Don't expect that the fry can survive being eaten. They won't. My A. australe tank is much more heavily planted than yours. Moreover, I have many more australes than you do but I have never seen fry in the tank. Not one. The only occasions I saw fry were when I transferred the parents to another tank.

Good luck with the medication. Let us know if the levamisole works.

Loh K L

[keehoe]

Don't have any thing to contribute. Just felt that i should at least drop by and say HI and welcome Francesco.

[menschenjaeger]

I've done battle with Camallanus successfully on two occasions. I don't remember the source for the figure, but a 2-day bath in a 2 ppm soln. of levamisole does the trick - follow up a few days later with a repetition of that bath.

There is evidence to suggest that levamisole can sterilize fish, so it pays not to do the 10ppm or higher doses you seem mentioned occasionally. I can vouch for at Aplocheilus and paradise fish being fertile after 2 2ppm baths.

The worms CAN take a couple of days to die, and remember that they are hooked to the fish's intestinal lining - they may not be dislodged rightaway. 36 hrs is too soon to declare victory for the worms.

[dageti]

Here's the link to your own album within the Public Galleries.

thank you, Jianyang!

I like to remind you that if you want to see Aphyosemion australe fry, you must remove either the eggs or the parents.

thanks Loh for your reminder, I am going to move the trio to a dedicated tank with spawning mops or live plants (or both), I'll check daily for eggs, collect and incubate them separately to ensure the highest possible hatching/survival rate. the person who gave me the AUS never bothers to collect the eggs or remove the parents and still gets a few survivors, but I'd rather raise as many fry as I can.

Just felt that i should at least drop by and say HI and welcome Francesco.

francesco bows down to Keehoe

...a 2-day bath in a 2 ppm soln. of levamisole does the trick - follow up a few days later with a repetition of that bath.

There is evidence to suggest that levamisole can sterilize fish...

thank you menschenjaeger (love the nickname): so far, dosages of 1-5 mg/l have been ineffective for my fishes, either due to alkaline pH or weak concentration, so I'm going for a stronger shot. I was aware of the possibilty of sterilizing the fish by overdosing, but at this stage I'd rather take the chance than lose my fishes to the worms. I knew it could take a while for all the parasites to die off, but it's been six days now and still no signs of subsiding.

what I am going to do is, get more levamisole from the pharmacy, do a 100% water change, fill the tank with slightly acidic water, dose it with a high (well, not too high) concentration of levamisole and closely monitor the fishes for signs of distress. hope it will work this time around.

best regards,

francesco