Using soil as gravel

[joe]

I am thinking of setting up a non-CO2 super low maintenance low light tank. From Diana Walstad's book, she recommends using soil as compared to gravel. Have a few questions in mind before I proceed.

1. Has anyone tried using soil as gravel before? If yes, what soil is suitable?

2. Does a rich substrate mean we also use base fertiliser in addition to the soil? That is we put a moderate amt of base fert and covered it up with some soil???

3. Crypts are all I have in mind. Any other plants recommendations??

Any advise/recommendations/comments are appreciated

[RonWill]

[quote:0ea782f26f="joe"]1. Has anyone tried using soil as gravel before? If yes, what soil is suitable?[/quote:0ea782f26f]I can't specify which is 'suitable' because I was experimenting as well. So far I've tried 'garden top soil' with a thin spread of Horti peat moss and covered with 4 inches of Lonestar gravel. I might want to try 'aquatic soil' if I can get my hands on them.

2. Does a rich substrate mean we also use base fertiliser in addition to the soil? That is we put a moderate amt of base fert and covered it up with some soil???

IMHO, the soil/peat combo is rich enough. If you go this route, I foresee your biggest headache will be dealing with excess leached nutrients. Do expect algae outbreaks and heartaches.

3. Crypts are all I have in mind. Any other plants recommendations??

I've crypts and vals in mine, with just ambient lighting. Have plenty of floating plants or hornwort to help absorb nutrient/control algae until tank stabilizes... which can take a while.

Any advise/recommendations/comments are appreciated

Yes, don't try it if you expect only success.

I will be following up this thread (What’s one habit of Mr Low-maintenance??) with more such setups when I have time, ie co2-less / with & without soil substrate.

My two 'Planter-box' tanks (page 5 of said thread) uses the soil/peat combo substrate as described above and they're doing just fine. YMMV.

Keep 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee

[RonWill]

Joe, I should add that these setups are not for those who rescape often or have itchy fingers that can't leave the tank alone until it stabilize.

IME, crypts don't do well in new setups. Let the vals and other floaters 'season' the tank first, then add your crypts.

Keep 'em fingers wet... and have fun!
Ronnie Lee

[azurehalcyon]

bro,
u could check out this thread 'how to make the best soil substrate? gurus please advise' under planted tank : fert n algae section. Basically exonerating the greatness of cocopeat...

I use cocopeat now, its basically just the medium, so it leaves me to tweak the fert levels to desired. Just it up, in fact...

[joe]

Hi Ronnie,

Thanks for your inputs. Bah I'm a lazy bummer when it comes to trimming plants. My hairgrass in my office non-CO2 tank was not trimmed for 3 months and it grew till the water surface!!!

Yup crypts will be the final plants for the aquascape. So will probably use some other hardy and wild plants season the tank first

[joe]

Hi Ronnie,

I was actually thinking of using only soil and even do away with the gravel. What do you think??

[bclee]

[quote:8a0f9151="joe"]Hi Ronnie,

I was actually thinking of using only soil and even do away with the gravel. What do you think??[/quote:8a0f9151]

Using gravel will keep the soil down. Soil being less dense and much smaller in particles tends to get suspended in the water and causes cloudiness and big mess.

Remember in the younger days when we go to the river or ponds to catch fishes. The moment you try to move your feet through the river bed of soil, you get a cloudy mess.

BC

[vinz]

The soil is actually the base fert. The gravel is meant to keep the soil from soiling the water.

In my tanks I've been using an average of 2 inches of pond soil (soil sold at nurseries for potting pond plants) and topping with about an inch or more of gravel. After about 1 plus yrs, my substrate seems to be depleted of trace elements. I'm not sure what went wrong, but I suspect from my readings that I made it too thick. This tank was also a high light/CO2 tank with a lot of heavy root feeders like nymphaes (aka lotus), cryptocorynes and echinodoruses.

IME, crypts love soil substrates. If your tank is large enough, lotuses are a good choice. Echinodoruses also come in many sizes, so you should be able to find some pretty good fits. Some plants will dwarf in non-CO2 tanks, but look quite healthy otherwise. Others non-CO2 tank regulars are anubias, ferns and mosses.

Other plants that have grown in my non-CO2 tanks.
- Sagittaria subulata
- Hygrophila polysperma
- Blyxa Japonica
- Elatine Triandra

The last 2 by most ppl experience will not thrive in such tanks, and I had limited success with the last one. I suspect that the shallow water allowed them enough light. Also, the gravel was old, so lots of mulm available between the gravel grains.

[juggler]

[quote:67be2359d6="azurehalcyon"]bro,
u could check out this thread 'how to make the best soil substrate? gurus please advise' under planted tank : fert n algae section. Basically exonerating the greatness of cocopeat...

I use cocopeat now, its basically just the medium, so it leaves me to tweak the fert levels to desired. Just it up, in fact...[/quote:67be2359d6]

Same here. Now I have been using cocopeat (made from coconut husks, sold at Cold Storage or plant nuseries) as part of my substrate. My setup is 2" of this stuff top up with 1" or gravel to keep it from floating up. Maybe I was getting better but I really got less algae problems than the first time when I used commercial fertilisers.

Things I found:
1) Cocopeat does not cloud water like mud. Even if you do frequent planting, the exposed cocopeat may just float up and you scoop away using a net. Over time they turn submerged.
2) It is not fertile in the long run. So no fertiliser leaching problem. I found I have to mix in JBL base fertiliser or Root Monster pellets to boost its performance.
3) It is cheap. $2 for a 5L bag. Eg. I used 3 bags for my 2.5ft tank.

If you are still deciding, you can test out samples of different soil in cups of water. You can top up the soils with gravel to simulate what you are going to do in your tank. Check their clarity, pH, kH, NO3, Po4, Fe whatever over some weeks. That's what I did and I decided on cocopeat.

In my current tanks, the substrate soil is 1.5 years. So far still OK.

[stocker]

Vinz and others who have tried,
In your experience, which are the Enchis that dwarf and to what extent in non-CO2 tanks?

Thanks!

[bclee]

I have an Echinodorus parviflorus that shrinks to about 1/2 its original size after I convert to non-CO2. It is growing quite healthily despite of the reduction in size.

BC

[joe]

Hi juggler,

So does a mixture of 1" base fertliser, followed by 1" cocopeat and top up of 1" gravel sound good???

[vinz]

I had some un-identified 6-inch tall Echinodorus in my non-CO2 tank. When I transferred 1 to a highlight-CO2 tank, it became a monster with 2ft long leaves. I think it is an E. martii http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=069.

I think you can expect most rosette plants to dwarf by about 50%.

[juggler]

[quote:fd849623a0="joe"]Hi juggler,

So does a mixture of 1" base fertliser, followed by 1" cocopeat and top up of 1" gravel sound good???[/quote:fd849623a0]

If you are willing to spend more on base fert, why not? It's great.
Because of economic constraints, so far I have only used 3:8 and 1:3 ratios of base fert:cocopeat. You can mix the base fert and cocopeat as well.

As usual, try to plan your layout beforehand. So there's needless uprooting and replanting.

[joe]

Yeah juggler, I got spare JBL base fert from a fren. Probably 2" of JBL+cocopeat+root monster, and top it up with some nice gravel should do it.

As for plants, might use some difformis and frogbits to dirty the tank first. Hehee

[RonWill]

Joe,
Cocopeat or coir, will float until it's boiled or microwaved, and personally, I'll hold the root monster till later... a new setup will provide sufficient excitement without having to deal with constantly leaching nutrient.

If you insist on adding any ferts, do top it off with sufficient gravel.

Skip the soil if you can help it (just remember that soil + water = mud) and takes pics as you progress. I'll be starting another 'lazy man tank' soon... perhaps we can compare notes.

Good luck with yours.

Keep 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee

[joe]

Hi Ronnie, points noted Can't wait to set up the hands free tank

[juggler]

[quote:4d9bf84f26="RonWill"]Skip the soil if you can help it (just remember that soil + water = mud) and takes pics as you progress. I'll be starting another 'lazy man tank' soon... perhaps we can compare notes.

Good luck with yours.

Keep 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee[/quote:4d9bf84f26]

Hi Ronnie,
Generally soil+water=mud is true. But I have tried cocopeat before and there's no mud. As I tore down my old 2.5ft to make way for my 3.5ft, I was even able to salvage the gravel by washing off the cocopeat. They are lighter than gravel and after some 3 or 4 rinse in the pail the remaining gravel is clean.
Just sharing some experience regarding cocopeat. I am not sure about other soils.
Cheers!
kf

[RonWill]

Hi Koah Fong,
Cocopeat is just finely shredded husks and shouldn't contain any soil, therefore it's possible to rinse the gravel for reuse. A soil+gravel combo is helluva messy to wash (I won't bother).

Unlike peat moss, cocopeat is pretty inert and while it does release some tannin, it doesn't readily turn the water column acidic. It is also what I use as bedding media for my vermiculture and grindal worm cultures. Mixing cocopeat into top soil provides good drainage in potted terrestrial plants.

I have a small 10gal with cocopeat/lonestar and also a very slow flow UGF. Setup is almost 2yrs old but I'll have to tear it down as I'm revamping my fish rack.

What I haven't tried is 'aquatic soil'... guess I'll be getting me some to experiment.

Keep 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee

[joe]

Hi Ronnie,

I was also contemplating using aqautic soil after seeing some in NA yesterday. Mr Chan there claims that these soil are quite good just by themselves and had many good comments from the people who buy from him. Its $26 per 4kg pack, and can be used for terrarium/planted. However, everything is in Japanese :P Are you thinking of using those?