Further question on Dosing

[chua]

Hi

According to the thread that i had post some time ago
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/phpbb...ghlight=dosing

The starting dosing as recommended by Vinz is 5ppm NO3 and 1ppm PO4 twice or thrice a week and see if my plants respond.

I will like to know if i need to add any K in my tank as it is not mentioned.

My present dosing is 4ml of TMG daily.
Since TMG already contain K and with my dosing regime, is it true to say that i should have sufficient k already.

Thks.

[geoffrey]

Hi Chua,

If you are dosing NO3 from KNO3, 2~3x weekly, that should provide sufficient K. For every 5ppm of NO3 you get from KNO3, you also get about 3ppm of K. That said, you should have about 6~9ppm of K from KNO3 alone. Plus those from TMG, more than enough in my opinion.

I use to dose K to 20~30ppm/week but not anymore. It's now about 10~12ppm/week from KNO3. And I personally find my NO3 high too.

As for PO4, I prefer dosing at 0.5ppm/dose if my tank needs it.

[chua]

Hi geoffrey,

Thks for the reply.

But how do you know that your NO3 is too high and whether your tank need PO4 or not?

You use test kits or you can tell by looking at your plants?

As for PO4, I prefer dosing at 0.5ppm/dose if my tank needs it.

You are saying that i should dose 0.5ppm/dose instead of the recommended 1ppm/dose.

Can i know your dosing regime?

Thks.

[geoffrey]

Chua,

Through measurements. It may not be very accurate but it can still act as a guide. What I meant is each dose gives 0.5ppm instead of 1ppm. And you do that 2~3x weekly depending on need.

I dose KNO3 for NO3 and K, 20ppm and 12ppm respectively; PO4 1~1.5ppm.

[PeterGwee]

Forget about PO4 testing...you really ain't going to be sure if the results you are getting is coming from the organic side of things or inorganic. Better to dose 1-3x per week at 1ppm depending on the amount of light (intensity/PC/NO FL), critter loading and the amount of water change you are willing to do. As long as the nutrients don't run out or get way excessive (destablize the entire system) you should be fine. The main key is the CO2.

For the NO3, unless you are willing to fork out $S100+ for a lab grade kit from Hach (available) or LaMotte, you are better off doing large weekly water changes to reset the tank and then dosing back the nutrients as poor quality kits can send you down the wrong path and cause loads of un-needed worries.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[chua]

Thks geoffrey for sharing your dosing regime.

So according to peterGwee, i can stick to the starting dosage recommended by Vinz.

5ppm NO3 and 1ppm PO4 twice or thrice a week and see if my plants respond.

Can anybody who is using TMG together with other chemicals share their dosing regime as well.

Thks in advance.

[ckll]

I am dosing 6ppm NO3, 0.6ppm PO4 and 4.5ml TMG twice a week.

I find that my tank is prone to green spot algae on glass and plants. I'll probably be increasing the frequency to 3 times a week. It seems that my tank is running out of steam with 2x dosing per week. Am going to try 3x and see if things will improve.

Lights : 72W, Water volume : 37gl. So, 1.9wpg.

I was previously doing 10ppm NO3, 1ppm PO4 and 3.5ppm TMG twice a week for my 2ft (16gl, 3.6wpg). That worked for me then.

[geoffrey]

So according to peterGwee, i can stick to the starting dosage recommended by Vinz.

Yes, you can.

[FC]

[quote:412773da6a="ckll"]I find that my tank is prone to green spot algae on glass and plants.[/quote:412773da6a]

It is a sign of:
1) overdosing on TMG or
2) overfeeding or
3) plants are not working hard enough

Solution:
3) change 35% water, increase CO2 and/or light intensity
2) & 1) you know what to do

Increasing PO4 (if you already have more than 0.3ppm) does not help to stop spot algae. It is a suppressant not a curer.

Regards,
Freddy Chng

[PeterGwee]

I am dosing 6ppm NO3, 0.6ppm PO4 and 4.5ml TMG twice a week.

I find that my tank is prone to green spot algae on glass and plants. I'll probably be increasing the frequency to 3 times a week. It seems that my tank is running out of steam with 2x dosing per week. Am going to try 3x and see if things will improve.

Lights : 72W, Water volume : 37gl. So, 1.9wpg.

ckll, try the following routine then..

Prune and remove as much algae as you can
Clean filter if clogged
50% weekly water changes
1/4 tsp of KNO3 2x a week
1 or 2 rice grain of KH2PO4 2x per week
7ml of TMG 2x per week
Keep CO2 in 20-35ppm range..error towards the higher side.
If things go sour for some reason, check the CO2 first. The nutrients are relatively easy if you keep up on the CO2.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[PeterGwee]

It is a sign of:
1) overdosing on TMG or
2) overfeeding or
3) plants are not working hard enough

Solution:
3) change 35% water, increase CO2 and/or light intensity
2) & 1) you know what to do

Increasing PO4 (if you already have more than 0.3ppm) does not help to stop spot algae. It is a suppressant not a curer.

Freddy, I don't agree on point one and point three seems too general. I have went wild with TMG at 15ml 3x per week for my 2ft tank blasted with 72w of power compact lights with no algae issues. It is some nutrients that is running out and probably the likely thing is PO4. Point three comes in when plants runs out of nutrients or CO2 and slows down...they have large reserves to store extra amount of nutrients.

Increasing PO4 (if you already have more than 0.3ppm) does not help to stop spot algae. It is a suppressant not a curer.

What kind of PO4 are we talking about here? Most hobbyist kits that we are using measure total PO4 which includes both organic and inorganic forms of PO4. Plants do not use organic ones if I can recall...dosing in excess does not put much harm on the system as long as it is within limits and will prevent things from running out. You do not gain much by running nutrients that lean or within such a narrow range. Oh..it is not a suppressant by the way. It is a plant nutrient...

Regards
Peter Gwee

[hammy]

Speaking of testing, I've got Redsea's PO4, NO3 and FE test kit but they always give the same result. I took every measurement during the same time of the day, that is, 2~3hrs after lights/CO2 on.

I've done three testings so far and the results are always the same. Anyone has any idea?

[FC]

[quote:b7a00fa5b8="hammy"]I've done three testings so far and the results are always the same.[/quote:b7a00fa5b8]
Selwyn,
If you are refering to your 6 footer, then, it is because it has large water volume which has the larger capacity to kurb chemistry fluctuations.

Regards,
Freddy Chng

[FC]

Peter,

I would like to seek your advise.

Do you think that a planted tank can do well (as good as your recommended regime) with water change (25%, just to suck the floating debris) only during pruning (say more than a month)? If yes, kindly share with me?

Regards,
Freddy Chng

[PeterGwee]

Do you think that a planted tank can do well (as good as your recommended regime) with water change (25%, just to suck the floating debris) only during pruning (say more than a month)? If yes, kindly share with me?

The regime is from Tom Barr's method. Not mine..
Freddy, you need to understand that Tom Barr's estimative index method way of dosing is based off a very high light tank (5.5w/g of PC lighting) at max uptake rate with good test kits (LaMotte). So basically, you are dosing in excess to prevent things from running out for the plants while the water changes is necessary to prevent things from getting way excessive. The uptake rate of most folks tank will not be that much anyway so there will definitely be some excess in nutrients.

So, the answer is a "no" to your question from my point of view. You might be able to get away with things through the use of a plant filter but that would require you to use a sump filter and the fact you cannot get rid of the unknowns...

Regards
Peter Gwee

[ckll]

[quote:487b9d76ec="PeterGwee"]

I am dosing 6ppm NO3, 0.6ppm PO4 and 4.5ml TMG twice a week.

I find that my tank is prone to green spot algae on glass and plants. I'll probably be increasing the frequency to 3 times a week. It seems that my tank is running out of steam with 2x dosing per week. Am going to try 3x and see if things will improve.

Lights : 72W, Water volume : 37gl. So, 1.9wpg.

ckll, try the following routine then..

Prune and remove as much algae as you can
Clean filter if clogged
50% weekly water changes
1/4 tsp of KNO3 2x a week
1 or 2 rice grain of KH2PO4 2x per week
7ml of TMG 2x per week
Keep CO2 in 20-35ppm range..error towards the higher side.
If things go sour for some reason, check the CO2 first. The nutrients are relatively easy if you keep up on the CO2.

Regards
Peter Gwee [/quote:487b9d76ec]

Thanks for the suggestion, Peter.

1/4 tsp of KNO3 yields 6ppm of NO3.
Was wondering if you have any idea 1 or 2 rice grain of KH2PO4 would yield for a 37gl tank ? Reason is I have already made a stock of NO3:PO4 in the ratio of 10:1. Just wonder how much KNO3 or PO4 to add to get the ratio you suggested above.

Thanks!

[juggler]

[quote:c85b25466e="ckll"]Thanks for the suggestion, Peter.

1/4 tsp of KNO3 yields 6ppm of NO3.
Was wondering if you have any idea 1 or 2 rice grain of KH2PO4 would yield for a 37gl tank ? Reason is I have already made a stock of NO3:PO4 in the ratio of 10:1. Just wonder how much KNO3 or PO4 to add to get the ratio you suggested above.

Thanks![/quote:c85b25466e]

Here's a silly way to find out:
From Chuck's website, the mass of KH2PO4 is about 4.8g per teaspoon.
So you take a teaspoon of rice and count how many grains is in there. Giving some room for error and the type of rice used, you should be able to determine the mass of a rice-grain amount of KH2PO4.

...just a joke.

BTW - actually you should have kept the NO3 and PO4 stock solution separate in case you need to fine tune your dosing.

[FC]

Peter,

Actually, I am already into no water change now because I would like to push myself a level higher. I wish to limprove the art of balancing the nutrients in the water rather than just add blindly and reset every week. I was thinking you may have some experiences that you can share to make my learning curve shorter.

Anyway, it has been working well so far. The tank is doing better than before - the water is super clear, plants seems to be better in colour and texture.

I suggest that you do the same, it's very interesting and you will get to learn more.

Regards,
Freddy Chng

[PeterGwee]

I wish to learn the art of balancing the nutrients in the water rather than just add blindly and reset every week.

Its not that easy and requires alot of testing with good equipment. (nutrient uptake varies from day to day and requires loads of testing to prevent things from running out. Each plant's need for a particular nutrient is different. Hairgrass might still do well at NO3 of 1ppm whereas APP or glosso would stunt at that level.). Testing for NO3 is fine with good kits from LaMotte or Hach but what about traces then? There is no hobbyist grade kit for each trace element. Another problem is a potential for nutrients to buildup to toxic levels if something went wrong (a nutrient bottom out without you noticing..) causing more harm to critters. The method Tom Barr recommend is good for both newbies or folks with loads of experience as they can whip a tank back into shape after neglect in 2-3 weeks time whereas the method you are going with requires loads of testing and might not work in every case. Not all folks love failure...some simply give up after the first try.

Anyway, it has been working well so far. The tank is doing better than before - the water is super clear, plants seems to be better in colour and texture.

Mine too...with loads of pearling, great plant growth and mass. You can do any method and it will work but the ease of use is what folks look at. What happen before your tank is doing better? Why is it doing better now? Buildup of some nutrient with no water changes? Think about it...I'll say NH3/NO3.

I suggest that you do the same, it's very interesting and you will get to learn more.

I will do the non-CO2 method with deep fertile substrate if I were to go the no water change routine except when doing pruning which will take months. No water change with a CO2 enriched tank is not my cup of tea...it can cause harm to critters if you overdose due to mistake which I am not willing to take the risk. I can whip a plant back into shape but I cannot revive a dead fish.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[FC]

[quote:ad09e592e9="PeterGwee"]What happen before your tank is doing better? Why is it doing better now?[/quote:ad09e592e9]
It was fine (when I dose like what Tom Barr suggested) but with no water change, surprisely, it is even better.

[quote:ad09e592e9="PeterGwee"]No water change with a CO2 enriched tank is not my cup of tea...it can cause harm to critters if you overdose due to mistake which I am not willing to take the risk.[/quote:ad09e592e9]
I thought the same too and that set me back 2 years. However, no risk, no gain.
The fun of nutrients adding and water change to reset or dilute the tank was over for me. I prefer now to understand my tank further and find out a way to least maintenance and maximum viewing fun. Trust me it is much more fun and very rewarding with a little of thinking and tweaking.
Now, I add much lesser nutrients and less frequent and acheiving the same and on some plants better results. I have alot of plant species in my tank that include stems, crypts, rossette, creepers.

As for the fishes, they are fine and there is no sign of risk at all for the past few months. My fishes still spawn but fail to keep their eggs because it is a community tank. Look at Diana's tanks, her goal is similar and her fishes are fine too. The difference is, for better control, I still prefer CO2 injection and I add customised nutrients.