Need lessons on substrate

**dts_spawn** · 15th May 2004, 17:03

any one out there care to give me a lesson on substrate?(i presume substrate means whatever that is at the bottom of the tank, correct me if i'm wrong.)

here are my questions:

what is the purpose of gravels? What type of gravel are good?

the bag of seachem "flourite" states that there is no need for gravel additives. is it true? how is this differnt form other type of gravel likelapis gravel?

i've read in this forum that cocopeat can be used. What does it replace?

how may layers should a substrate have?

can i just add base fert and nothing else?

P.S. sorry for such stupid questions

**subxero** · 15th May 2004, 21:55

I think the gravel is to hold your plant in place/rooted. Gravels which are not too big and with no sharp corners are suitable.

Seems like Lapis is quite popular here. I've tried them before but it is very dirty initially and clouds the water. Have to clean a few times before placing it into the tank :P

A bit confused by the last sentence.. you mean to add base fert without gravel?

**chua** · 15th May 2004, 23:00

To add on, gravel should be around 2-3mm in size.

This is to allow the substrate to be aerated and at the same time allow the plants to hold on firmly to the substrate.

You just need a layer of substrate on top of the base fertilizer.

Just adding the base fertilizer is out of the question. It will seep totally into the water thus resulting in a lot of algae problem. It is meant for the roots of the plants and not for the water.

**dts_spawn** · 16th May 2004, 10:50

thank you for your answers. why would putting gravel on top of the base fert prevent the water from being enriched? And is there anything in the market that is all-in-one?

**chua** · 16th May 2004, 11:43

By adding a layer of substrate on top will reduce the seeping significantly.

It is advisable to add twice the height of the base fertilizer.

For all in one, you can try the more expensive ADA.

**juggler** · 16th May 2004, 12:07

Yes - "substrate" means the stuff at the bottom of your tank.

Usually there are two layers in the substrate for planted tanks:
1) gravel: the top 1"~2" layer. It is inert and used to weigh down the base fertiliser and prevent seepage. And usually those 2~3mm grain size. Eg. Lonestar brand. Be careful not to use those coral chips meant for marine tanks.
2) base fertiliser: the bottom layer. Provides nutrients to the plants via their roots. Eg. JBL Base fertiliser and other commercial ones. Cocopeat or other soils. It is up to you how many layers or types you want in this base fertiliser level.

Hope that helps.

[quote:afc0df96d8="dts_spawn"]any one out there care to give me a lesson on substrate?(i presume substrate means whatever that is at the bottom of the tank, correct me if i'm wrong.)

here are my questions:

what is the purpose of gravels? What type of gravel are good?

the bag of seachem "flourite" states that there is no need for gravel additives. is it true? how is this differnt form other type of gravel likelapis gravel?

i've read in this forum that cocopeat can be used. What does it replace?

how may layers should a substrate have?

can i just add base fert and nothing else?

P.S. sorry for such stupid questions

[/quote:afc0df96d8]

**Sleepy_lancs** · 16th May 2004, 12:33

I have flourite and used lapis. Both works. 1 bag of flourite cost about 40 dollars. IMHO, just use lapis. Lapis sand is rounder, therefore planting is much easier. flourite sand sharper it does cuts fingers.

**dts_spawn** · 17th May 2004, 21:20

[quote:5a8c8858fe="juggler"]Yes - "substrate" means the stuff at the bottom of your tank.

Usually there are two layers in the substrate for planted tanks:
1) gravel: the top 1"~2" layer. It is inert and used to weigh down the base fertiliser and prevent seepage. And usually those 2~3mm grain size. Eg. Lonestar brand. Be careful not to use those coral chips meant for marine tanks.
2) base fertiliser: the bottom layer. Provides nutrients to the plants via their roots. Eg. JBL Base fertiliser and other commercial ones. Cocopeat or other soils. It is up to you how many layers or types you want in this base fertiliser level.

Hope that helps.

[/quote:5a8c8858fe]

Thanks! any information helps! and if the gravel is just to hold the base fert, why are there some super expensive ones? and how does it pervent the water from being enriched? and why can't i use those coral chips? they only change the kH of my water right?

**AquaFanatic** · 20th May 2004, 10:38

Hi Bro, I assume that coral chip will affect the ph also.. It will increase the ph value as well..

**chua** · 20th May 2004, 12:18

There are a slight misconception.

Coral chips increase the KH only.
Due to the increase in KH, PH then increases.
Note that the CO2 level in your tank is still the same.

In other words, coral chips cannot alter PH directly. This can only be done by pumping more CO2 level in your tank.

**AquaFanatic** · 20th May 2004, 12:23

Oh Okie.. learn somthing new..

Thanks for the info

**reefsin** · 25th May 2004, 13:25

I started out with JBL base fertiliser topped with gravel (lonestar I think) and experimented with various common stem plants. I have since fallen for the beautiful Ludwigia inclinata (cuba). Although they are classified as a "slow growing " plant in Tropica, I find that they do grow quite fast. The problem arises when I have to pull the plant out frequently, trim off the bottom and plant the top half again. The JBL fertiliser will then seep out from the bottom creating a mess and algae problem too.

Last week I had a total overhaul and am now trying to rinse off the fertiliser from the gravel and have a new set up using only gravel. Is this possible in the long term if I wish to continue having stem plants in the tank? (the ludwigia seems to be doing quite well temporary in the spare gravel only tank) What other alternatives can one use other than the base fertiliser?

**juggler** · 25th May 2004, 16:11

For the L.inclinata Cuba which I also have, I sometimes trim the stem at the gravel level instead of pulling it up. I leave the bottom part in there to rot. Doesn't seem to cause any problem so far.

If you do not wish to use base fertiliser, then you can try stuff like Root Monsters. Put a few near the roots. They will slowly release the nutrients to the root area.

**Heuer** · 25th May 2004, 17:22

Hi juggler,

Care to share how you trim the stem. do you cut the lower part and replant it. i gave up on this plant as they grow too fast and tent to grow forward and cover the light. The lower stem seems to loss all the leaves which make it very ugly and leaves start floating on the surface.

Its a beautiful plant though!

Cheers.

**reefsin** · 25th May 2004, 23:00

Thanks Juggler for tip. Will try that. Thinking through, after cutting off at the gravel level, won't the new shoot continue to grow out from the tip?

Back on the subject on substrate. I really wish new hobbyist would think through what they wishes to plant in their tank before they start adding all the fertisiler, substract and gravel. I am thinking of having a foreground comprising of java moss (like the tank in Nature). Therefore, fertiliser under the gravel may not be necessary. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

Can any experienced wise bro please advise how I can remove all the fertiliser from the gravel before I put the gravel back into the tank. Surely there is a better way than scooping them out and rinsing them till the water clears (my water bill surely double next month). I am thinking of just drying them together and let the wind carry away the fertiliser and leaving the gravel. Will this work?

**dts_spawn** · 26th May 2004, 18:07

[quote:5551b7d018="Sleepy_lancs"]I have flourite and used lapis. Both works. 1 bag of flourite cost about 40 dollars. IMHO, just use lapis. Lapis sand is rounder, therefore planting is much easier. flourite sand sharper it does cuts fingers.[/quote:5551b7d018]

since they are the same, why does the florite cost so much more? and what does cocopeat replaces?

**PeterGwee** · 26th May 2004, 18:34

Flourite is clay enriched with iron with high CEC whereas lapis gravel is plain sand with nothing. IMO, if you are doing a new tank, you are better off using a good substrate like flourite instead of lapis gravel unless you are going with rootless plants for long term.

Regards
Peter Gwee

**dts_spawn** · 27th May 2004, 17:26

[quote:80b6007213="PeterGwee"]Flourite is clay enriched with iron with high CEC whereas lapis gravel is plain sand with nothing. IMO, if you are doing a new tank, you are better off using a good substrate like flourite instead of lapis gravel unless you are going with rootless plants for long term.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[/quote:80b6007213]

then do i need base fert with flourite since it is already enriched?

**PeterGwee** · 27th May 2004, 18:34

Just use the flourite would do....if you want to kick start a new tank, you should always try to get some fresh mulm (dirt) from established tanks and add to the base of the tank and then top if off with the flourite in your case.

Regards
Peter Gwee