Green algae on glass help!

[|squee|]

I've got a flim of green algae growing all over my tank walls, but not on my plants.

I've 30ppm of c02, kH and gH normal, nitrate and nitrite levels unknown, 7 hours lighting of 24W in this 2ft x 1ft x 1.5ft tank.

Plants are java fern, ranalisma rostrata, and a single big Anubias Nana that is even flowering. The java fern are growing well, and the ranalisma is running all over too.

Fish consist of 10-15 cardinals, 3 otos, a pair of lampeyes, and yamato shrimps.

Why then is the algae growing? I've searched forums and websites, but none gave proper information, like what causes that green algae.

Anyone? Thanks

[David]

I thought I have answered this question before?.......Why you dont find much info about this kind of algae be it thread like or spot, is that they thrive on the same condition needed for plants.

In addition, it was discussed along time ago that good water circulation that happens to hit the glass improves condition for spot algae....based on what you have posted, most of your plants are slow growers and that may make conditions more favorable for the algae.

Even if you do find any data on this kind of algae, at most you can control the ourbreak but it is almost never a 100% eradication.....that is why algae srubbers are still selling in the market......

[PeterGwee]

How consistent is your CO2 level? You need to make sure it stays around there for the entire photoperiod week in week out and not just at the point of measurement and then drop off later. This is the hardest of things to control and can burn newbies and old plant folks. If the CO2 is good, all that is left is just nutrients which you seem to have no idea what to dose? Forget about the NO3 kits as most are rubbish unless you go with Hach or LaMotte kits which cost a lot. Search for Tom Barr's estimative index method. Works without test kits except for pH/KH/GH kits.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[|squee|]

My c02 level is consistant... around 30ppm since it's on timer controlled solenoid.

Sorry, David, because I was bent on finding out why . I couldn't accept the explanation that all algae are the same.

Seems like I have to stop using those "all-in-1" fertilisers and start using others. Maybe tweak my lights also.

Thanks guys.

[liuhao]

i have the same problem. and i think algae is same as what you described "film of green algae". if i look more closely they look like "spots" but when all spots stay together a film is formed.

my setup is very similar as yours. lighting is 38W for 2 feet with co2. not direct sunlight or even ambient sun light. ph/kh should be in good leve. however, i have very strong water flow. i use 2028 filter for my 2 feet. i think that's strong enough. most green algae are on front and back glass, where i think the flow rate is quite high. total live stock is about 25 tetra size. my plants grow quite fast. my water change is 40% every 2 weeks. i also use all-in-1 type of fertilizer which is Tetra FlorPride.

my ammonia level is minimal. not detectable. i will test no3 level this evening which i think will give some interesting results. my rough feeling is it has something to do with the macro and micro fertilization, expecially N (either too low or too high) and IRON. because it looks like my green algae outbreak happened after i increase feeding and dosing some seachem iron though i am not sure. btw is your tank new? i heard too low N can cause green algae. most likely my no3 is very low. if so i will dose KNO3 (seachem Nitrigen) to raise the NO3 to right level.

hope we can share our findings and cross check. meanwhile i will source for green algae eaters if there is any, and scrap the glass. i believe there should be some fish eating those green algae because the algae looks quite delicious to me. hee...

[liuhao]

checked and found my NO3 is very high. more than 60ppm. so high that out of scope of my testkit though NO2 and ammonia is not registered.

suddenly remember i dosed some seachem nitrogen sometime ago for my APP...

no wonder got green algae...

btw i found a nice chart here showing high N and low P can lead green algae:


test your NO3 please...

[|squee|]

Thanks man. Right. I'll try to get a n03 kit. Right now all I have are gH, kH and pH.

[PeterGwee]

Hi,

The ratio applies where these are limiting, if there's an ample supply
relative to light/CO2, then the ratio does not matter.

You can have 2 ppm of PO4 and 2 ppm of NO3 as long as this ratio and
levels are stable, it works fine as does 20ppm of NO3 and 0.2ppm of
PO4.

The ratio also includes NH4, which will make a huge difference if a
large fraction of the N is NH4(algae will grow). There are organic
fractions which the plants generally cannot use, a similar situation
occurs with PO4. Algae can use these organic fractions, unlike the
plants. These differences are significant when talking about plants
and algae and dominance in your tank.
Regular large water changes will keep the levels of the organic
fractions down.

In a high light tank you might have to dose more frequently to keep
this ratio but this whole mess with ratios does not limit algae in and
of it's self nor is it that horticulturally important.

As long as the growth needs of the plant are available, then the ratio
can be quite high or low. These are generalized ratios, specific algae
and plants can vary widely.

FW algae have ratios of 14:1 and FW macrophytes have about a 10:1 N
ratio.
Redfield's ratio is based on marine algae, not FW macrophytes or FW
algae.

We are trying to grow the macrophytes/plants are we not?
Shouldn't their needs be addressed since that is what we are selecting
to grow? I can also assure you that FW algae can and do grow nicely at
16:1 ratios N in many aquariums.

It seems to me if you base this arguement solely on the ratio, 16:1
would favor the algae, not the plants with their richer P content
relative to N.
There's talk about algae's ratio but not the plants which is the focus
of a planted tank.

10:1 ratios are generally mentioned as best for submersed aquatic
plants plants, but this will mainly save you a little KH2PO4 and KNO3
as you do a water changes to prevent any build up or depletion. These
are quite cheap. So as long as all the plants have either, then the
plants grow great and there's little algae presence.

A simple way to maintain a ratio: Do large weekly water changes(50+%)
to prevent any nutrient build up, dose frequently to prevent anything
from running out.

Good plant growth is the key. That is how you outwit algae. That is
the best path IME.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Does plants need such precise range of nutrients to grow well? Think about it. It doesn't...most NO3 kits are very lousy as I have said. If you are not convince, go ahead and try testing. I went down that line already...I do not want folks to waste their money on that. Spend it on something more worthwhile or get the Hach kit which is available from a local distributor.


Regards
Peter Gwee

[liuhao]

agree that accurate measurement and monitoring of macro elements is not practical unless you use $300 testkit but doing that all the time is really against the joyment of aquascaping.

i would use the chart as a rough guideline. green algae outbreak? too much N, either reduce N or compensate P but reducing N is easy anyway. just do water change. BGA outbreak? too much P. can compensate N but a water change will do that too right?

just keep N and P at low level i think there wont be algae outbreak. there might be some algae exists but that's the job of algae eaters. hehe...

[budak]

hi liuhao,

If you read around here (esp. plantbrain and petergwee's posts), the idea that restricting nutrients controls algae is not just passé but pretty well disproven. Plant have a much greater capacity for nutrient uptake than algae and feeding them enough nutrients and CO2 ensures that they gain an upper hand in the tank environment. That's one reason why quite a few of us dose NO3, PO4, K etc... if the plants are limited by the lack of any one nutrient, growth stalls and algae gets a leg up (ever seen an algae's leg? It's hairy and reeks of waterbear shit). Plantbrain (aka Tom Barr)'s Estimative Index approach does away with the need to use any test kit but KH and pH. Just get your initial calculation right and the weekly regime soon becomes 2nd nature.

[Plantbrain]

Merely keeping N and P at a low level is meaningless.
Plenty of folks have that and have algae issues.

CO2 and lack of NO3 are the twop main issues with planted tank algae problems and this directly stems from poor plant growth.

I can have 30ppm of NO3 and 2 ppm of PO4 and no algae.
Clearly, I have non limiting conditions for algae growth.
But we do not observe this.
We do observe lush plant growth.

This is also true without any fish or herbivore interactions at very high light.

If you want to learn more, I am starting an on line mag, the BarrReport.com where I will detail out more of these ideas.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[|squee|]

Ok, an update. The algae seems to have slowed down.

I scraped all of it off into the water ( man green water. ) and did a 50% water change.

I checked my c02 one night. My goodness it was 60ppm. I finetuned the stupid needle valve.

The algae seems to have stopped growing, but it is still there.

Thanks guys.

[d2hpeter]

hi |squee| try the zebra snails, it is effective. The wall in my tanks are sparkling clean, like brand new. I don't hv to worry about water change, scrapping etc. everything is in equilibrium. In fact i hv not change the water for eight mths already and it is still clear, not greenish or brownish.

only problem is the zebra will OCCASIONALLY drop out of my open-top tanks when they explore upwards.


[quote:cb1947643c="|squee|"]Ok, an update. The algae seems to have slowed down.

I scraped all of it off into the water ( man green water. ) and did a 50% water change.

I checked my c02 one night. My goodness it was 60ppm. I finetuned the stupid needle valve.

The algae seems to have stopped growing, but it is still there.

Thanks guys. [/quote:cb1947643c]

[liuhao]

any picture howing how it looks like? any LFS selling it? thanks.

[budak]

some info is available here

snails and other algae eaters are fine, but please don't regard them as the key to algae control (they are most certainly not). whether or not your tank is a high maintenance, CO2 injected tank or low-tech system with little fert and hardly any water change, it's healthy plants in stable growing environments that help deal with their spore-forming cousins. I maintain both types of setups and have no need to scrape the glass or do massive maintenance either.

[d2hpeter]

no, i am not suggesting total reliance on snails and algae eaters etc.
I am talking about achieving Balance.
Good plant growth is still needed to purify water and to counter excessive algae.
But i like the snails to polish up my glass. It has got slight brownish and greenish stain after prolonged period.



[quote:79e05ef642="budak"]some info is available here

snails and other algae eaters are fine, but please don't regard them as the key to algae control (they are most certainly not). whether or not your tank is a high maintenance, CO2 injected tank or low-tech system with little fert and hardly any water change, it's healthy plants in stable growing environments that help deal with their spore-forming cousins. I maintain both types of setups and have no need to scrape the glass or do massive maintenance either.[/quote:79e05ef642]

[budak]

please don't think i'm picking on you or anything like that. I just find the frequent use of the terms "Balance" and "Equilibrium" fairly (i.e. pretty much) meaningless. There are no universal terms of reference, people throw the words about (I am not unguilty either) to indicate they know something others don't and it becomes a goal that nobody can even identify.

[d2hpeter]

pardon me if i used the wrong word
What i want to express with the word "balance" is that i can sit back and enjoy more without the frequent water change, glass scrappling etc...and yet the plant is still growing well and the glass is transparent enough for visual enjoyment.
Thanks for reminding for the use of the word.
Maybe i should say that my workload is reduced and my "enjoymentLoad" is increased.



[quote:fe173c799c="budak"]please don't think i'm picking on you or anything like that. I just find the frequent use of the terms "Balance" and "Equilibrium" fairly (i.e. pretty much) meaningless. There are no universal terms of reference, people throw the words about (I am not unguilty either) to indicate they know something others don't and it becomes a goal that nobody can even identify.[/quote:fe173c799c]

[budak]

No worries... i should like to add that my current goal in the hobby is a real imbalance: maximum effect with minimum effort.

[Plantbrain]

Is the algae you have on the glass, is it a soft film? You can wipe it off with your hand almost?
And does it appear to grow back a few hours or less on the glass?

That's green dust.

If it's something other than that, nutrients alone will take care of it.
Scrub off the Green Dust(GD) with the filters and current off, and vacuum up the left overs as fast as you can.
Some drain the tank, remove and lift it out as they scrub and then refill, then scrub again later that day and do another large water change, or you can repeat a day later also.

The alga are zoospores and can reattach. Basically you wipe them off, they swim around for a few minuters and resettle back where you just wiped them off.

I have not been able to grow this alga for more than 2- 3 weeks.
After it went through it's zoospore stage, it went away and has not been seen since.

But if you clean the glass once a week etc, that will only keep them in this stage and they are stressed so they stay mobile and attach to the glass.

Regards,
Tom Barr