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Thread: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

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    looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

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    Maybe Tom Barr can come take a look? I'm in Lake Forest, in SoCal.

    This is an unusual post for this forum, I would readily admit, since everyone else tries to solve their own problems here. But I'm just too new to this hobby, and I haven't been able to devote enough time to read through all the books (even though I have bought most of the books) and diagnose my problem.

    I have a low tech, Walstad-style tank, with ADA Amazonia substrate, in a 17 gallons ADA Cube Garden 60-P. Two outflow tubes, two inflow Lily Pipes, UV sterilizer, a very small Syncra Silent 700 l/h - 1.350 l/h recirculation pump, and a heater set to 68F minimum temp. The only lighting is direct afternoon sun.


    Here are two shots of the tank as it stands this afternoon. The light is coming from the back of the tank. It's pushed up against a west facing window. The neon tetras seem very happy. They go to nap when I'm not around. But once they see me and they see the blue Fluval Tropical Flakes bottle, they go into hyperactive mode and just zip around the tank looking for the flakes. I never remove any water. To add water, I use tap water mixed with Seachem Prime as conditioner to get rid of the harmful chemicals. Notice the dangling roots at the top of the tank. That's from the full cover of floating plants at the top of the tank. I also had a liberal sprinkle of crushed oyster shells imported from Canada.


    The fish survival history is as follows:


    June 2014: bought six neon tetras and three snails from PetSmart Tustin Market Place, 2741 El Camino Real, Tustin, CA 92782. Five tetras were adult-sized (2cm long), one was a baby (1cm long). At that time, the plants in the tank were already established to 80% of what you see here. The tank has been going by itself without any livestock for many months to get it to this state. I wanted to make sure it's a "good environment" for fish before letting fish swim in it.


    A few days later, one adult disappeared. I never found its body.


    For the next several months, the fish seems happy.


    One snail disappeared soon after going into the tank.


    Two other snails were crawling all over the place. There were snail births already. I can see at least three baby snails up to 5mm diameter a month ago.


    Then three weeks ago one snail tried to crawl over the top of the tank. I was lucky to be right there, and caught it as it flipped over the side of the tank. I checked its appearance, and everything seems fine. So I plunked it back into the tank. It moved to the sunward corner, and then it didn't move anymore. I think it's dead now. But, before that happened, a lot of tiny white dots kept crawling out of its body. All of them were tiny baby snails. Quite a few survived. Maybe the tetras ate the rest?


    At about that same time, three weeks ago, one out of the four remaining adult tetras disappeared.


    So we're down to three adults and one baby tetra.


    Today, the baby died, and that's what caused me to take this drastic step to make this post.


    I did a water test immediately this morning. Ammonia and Nitrate testing showed minimal levels; the color strips matched the lowest concentration's color.

    I do have green hair algae growing all the time. I do manual removal with a toothbrush every week. Despite the huge amount of plants, and a small amount of livestock, but with plentiful sun, the algae still wins out.

    Michael Hui
    949-510-3241
    [email protected]


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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    pH is 7.4 as of tonight.

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    I don't think you need an expert to visit your place to diagnose the issues with your tank... though it'll be fun if Tom Barr could pop by your place and give this advice.

    Based on your test strip measurements, the parameters look okay, though you have to consider that test strips aren't very accurate. I have used test strips before and the results can be very different from liquid tests kits (ie. test strip indicate 0 ammonia but liquid test shows 2ppm). I find the measurement variations tend to be simply too wide for test strips to be of much reliable use.

    Since your tetras lived for a few months before you started seeing one or two of them die a few weeks apart, the ones that died could either be old or just weak/sick. Younger fishes tend to be more sensitive than adult fishes, so there is also a higher chance of them dying too.

    Its not like they all died at once (which would indicate something bad in the tank), the other fishes look healthy and active right? So in this case it shouldn't be much cause for concern.

    Note that if you are running a Walstad style tank without an actual filter (that has filter media/sponges which can be cleaned regularly), an incredible amount of waste and organic compounds will accumulate inside the tank itself (in essence the tank itself becomes the filter chamber, containing months and years of waste material), and since you don't do any water changes (only top ups), the total dissolved solid (TDS) levels will increase steadily over time... eventually, the water will retain very high levels of chemicals, metals and accumulated dissolved organic compounds, some of which could affect the livestock.

    If you are keen to know the TDS of your tank water, you could buy a TDS meter to test it (can buy from aquarium shops or order from amazon.com for less then $20).

    Do be aware that neon tetras prefer low pH softwater (low TDS) conditions, so the higher pH and possibly high TDS environment in your tank may not be as optimal for them, which may result in weaker health (even though they may adapt to such conditions over time).

    Algae growing in your tank is expected... when you use sunlight as the light source for your tank and plants, all the variables of weather fluctuations and changing light intensity come into play. These variations will also affect the condition of the plant growth and water conditions.

    What if there were a series of cloudy or rainy days without much light? The plants photosynthesize less and take in alot less nutrients, perhaps the ammonia levels might rise during those days? Those are the environment variables we can't control. Its very different from a controlled environment like in a conventional planted tank with consistent light intensity and a fixed schedule.

    Since its a "El Natural" setup, there is also no Co2 injection or fertilizer dosing in the tank too, so the plants overall growth and nutrient take up rate (even if they are fast growing plants) are still restricted by the limited carbon supply and specific nutrient deficiencies in the tank.

    Algae can adapt way faster than plants and thrive when it comes to such variable conditions, as they need even less complete nutrients and less carbon to grow rapidly compared to the plants.

    I'm a big fan of the Walstad natural planted tank concept, i have her book and have read it cover to cover too, but it is indeed a challenge to maintain a structured predictable tank environment using the "El Natural" walstad method. I've also tried running similar tank setups too and there will always tend to be a certain wild look to such tanks... complete with algae too.
    Last edited by Urban Aquaria; 6th Jan 2015 at 17:27.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    My test results come from using liquid test kits.

    Do you notice any algae growth on the surface of the soil in my pictures? I think there is some. If so, what is the remedy?

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    never seen tom barr did a Walstad-style tank before , maybe you can pm him to chime in .

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by limz_777 View Post
    never seen tom barr did a Walstad-style tank before , maybe you can pm him to chime in .
    I agree with you.

    I knew this would be intellectually awkward.

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    I can smell rotten eggs in the afternoon if the morning has been sunny.

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    My test results come from using liquid test kits.
    Oic... i saw you mention "color strips" in your post so i thought it was test strips.

    If its based on liquid test kit, then your parameters look fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Do you notice any algae growth on the surface of the soil in my pictures? I think there is some. If so, what is the remedy?
    Yeah, i do see algae on the soil surface... can't really advise much on algae control in a walstad style tank, other than adding more plants, reducing sunlight exposure (shift the tank or use curtains) or just manually removing the algae.

    Honestly... without filter, no water changes, no Co2 injection, no fertilizer dosing, using sunlight as light source etc... all the odds are stacked against the plants and in favor of the algae, its just too "El Natural". Its basically a micro version of an outdoor pond environment with the same conditions, there will naturally be lots of algae everywhere, its part of the natural ecosystem.


    Quote Originally Posted by limz_777 View Post
    never seen tom barr did a Walstad-style tank before , maybe you can pm him to chime in .
    Thats why it'll be fun to see his response to the tank.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    I can smell rotten eggs in the afternoon if the morning has been sunny.
    The stinky rotten eggs smell comes from hydrogen sulphide released by the tank's bacteria as it breaks down organic matter in the absence of oxygen, usually from the anaerobic bacteria living inside the substrate (sometimes you may see small bubbles floating up from the substrate to the water surface, that's the hydrogen sulphide).

    This probably happens in your tank because the thick soil substrate has compacted over the months and there aren't many plants with deep roots in the substrate to help aerate the soil, so the soil becomes anaerobic/oxygen deficient.

    The heat from the sunny morning probably warms the water and increases the anaerobic bacteria activity, hence more stinky bubbles.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Any suggestion for hardy plants that'll put down deep roots? Your analysis is spot on regarding anaerobic processes going on deep inside the soil.

    Swords don't work. I've tried too many. Hornworts obviously work, but they don't drill enough roots into the soil.

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Any suggestion for hardy plants that'll put down deep roots? Your analysis is spot on regarding anaerobic processes going on deep inside the soil.

    Swords don't work. I've tried too many. Hornworts obviously work, but they don't drill enough roots into the soil.
    Hygrophila difformis works for me.
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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by mUAr_cHEe View Post
    Hygrophila difformis works for me.
    Very nice.



    Do I need to be very picky about where to buy the plant?

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    I put in a water heater recently, set to 70F minimum. That may have contributed to the problem.

    Before, I had no heater, even though the room would be heated for human inhabitants so it rarely dropped below 64F.

    But now I realize the lower minimum temp overnight must have helped to keep the daytime max temp from getting too high simply due to thermal inertia.

    Should I go without the heater then?

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Sorry but I do not have any experience about LFSes in your the States but I do love your sunny state. I would think that any green and healthy specimen would be fine.
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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    I put in a water heater recently, set to 70F minimum. That may have contributed to the problem.

    Before, I had no heater, even though the room would be heated for human inhabitants so it rarely dropped below 64F.

    But now I realize the lower minimum temp overnight must have helped to keep the daytime max temp from getting too high simply due to thermal inertia.

    Should I go without the heater then?
    64F is a little too low. Emulating our tropical conditions here, I think the temperature should not drop before 69F.
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    Occasionally, I would have some trimmings to give away in exchange for a can of Milk Coffee. PM me to deal.

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Any suggestion for hardy plants that'll put down deep roots? Your analysis is spot on regarding anaerobic processes going on deep inside the soil.

    Swords don't work. I've tried too many. Hornworts obviously work, but they don't drill enough roots into the soil.
    Although its a "sword" plant, you could try Echinodorus tenellus (aka pygmy chain sword, if you haven't tried them yet), they are fast easy growers with a grassy look, and they put down really long roots.

    Can also try Blyxa japonica, its actually a stem plant but looks like a rosette plant as it grows in nice round bushes. It also put down long thick roots.

    Cryptocorynes would also be a good choice too (ie. Cryptocoryne wendtii is a hardy variant and easy to grow), they are slower growers and take more time to adapt to a tank, but when they do establish, they will create really large root systems.

    Ultimately, whether those plants do well in your tank would still depend on the light, carbon and nutrient availability (if they don't get sufficient balance of any of them, they will still grow poorly and deteriorate), so you'll just have to try and see.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    Cryptocorynes would also be a good choice too (ie. Cryptocoryne wendtii is a hardy variant and easy to grow)
    I have tried Cryptocoryne wendtii lots of times. Their leaves go transparent and that's the end of the plant.

    I once had these thick stemmed grass grow with a lot of deep roots. But they became so entwined with the green hair algae that I had to rip out the grass with the algae. Come to think of it, that was a bad move, as those roots were doing a lot of good down there.

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    I have tried Cryptocoryne wendtii lots of times. Their leaves go transparent and that's the end of the plant.
    For cryptocorynes, its common for their leaves to melt when planted into a tank due to their slower transition to new environments, but as plants that store nutrient reserves in their rhizomes, they will usually re-grow new healthy adapted leaves... so you should just leave them in the substrate and let them grow back out again (just remove the older melted leaves to reduce organic waste polluting the tank).

    The transition process for these plants tends to be slow, so it may look like the plant is dead, but in fact it may still be okay. Just got to give it more time, especially in a low-tech el natural tank environment.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    just remove the older melted leaves to reduce organic waste polluting the tank.
    I have left them in there, but most don't grow back.

    I've read in Walstad's book that dead leaves are OK to leave in the tank. Is that true in practice?

    I have done the occasional clipping of old hornwort branches that have lost their color, but nothing beyond that.

    I know the pH is stable due to the oyster shells I've sprinkled in there.
    Last edited by myhui; 7th Jan 2015 at 13:12.

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    Re: looking for a PAID consultant to come look at my new tank

    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    I have left them in there, but most don't grow back.
    They can take a long time to recover and grow back, especially in a low-tech tank, they are putting more energy into growing roots and taking nutrients from the soil for storage, once they are ready then they start putting resources into growing leaves, so you just have to wait (i've had crypts in my grow-out tank that had zero leaves, all melted away, nothing happen for a few months, then one day i see tiny fresh leaves grow out, after that it quickly grew into large bunches over the subsequent months).

    Alot of people lose patience after seeing the bare rhizome for a few weeks and just throw them out, but actually they should just be left alone to recover.

    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    I've read in Walstad's book that dead leaves are OK to leave in the tank. Is that true in practice?

    I have done the occasional clipping of old hornwort branches that have lost their color, but nothing beyond that.
    For the walstad method, since there is no fertilizer dosing and no water changes, leaving the dead leaves in a tank is mainly to allow it to rot and release nutrients back into the water column... but that also carries the issues of algae taking advantage of those excess nutrients and growing more rapidly around those areas with dead plant matter. So its a trade-off.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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