BBA and short-fine-hair algae

[neon]

Tank Dimensions (LxWxH): 6' x 2' x 2'
Lighting Intensity(No of Watts) : 2 x 150W
Type of Lighting (FL/PL/MH) : MH
No. of Hours your light is on: 10
CO2 Injection Rate (bps) : countless
Type of CO2 (DIY/Liquid/Tank) : Pressurized Tank with Solenoid Valve
Method of Injection (e.g. Diffusor/Reactor): External Reactor (fr NA)
Substrate Used : Lapis Sand
How Thick is your base fert : 2” (lapis mix with 4 bags of JBL Base Fert)
How thick is your gravel : 2” top + 2" bottom mix with base fert
Liquid Fertilizers Used :
Dr Mallick’s :
a) KNO3 (Pre-mix : 10 tbsp in 1000ml of water)
b) KH2PO4 (Pre-mix : 10 tbsp in 1000ml of water)
c) K2SO4 (Pre-mix : 10 tbsp in 1000ml of water)
d) MgSO4 (Pre-mix : 10 tbsp in 1000ml of water)
e) Rexon (Pre-mix : 1 package in 1000ml of water)

Frequency of fertilization :
a) KNO3, 50ml (10ppm) of pre-mix solution, 3 times a week
b) KH2PO4, 11ml ( 1ppm) of pre-mix solution, 3 times a week
c) K2SO4, 45ml ( 7ppm) of pre-mix solution, 3 times a week
d) MgSO4, 60ml (3.5ppm) of pre-mix solution, 3 times a week
e) Rexon, 15ml (0.25ppm) of pre-mix solution, 3 times a week
f) coral sand inside carnister

Tank Temperature : 25-26 ?C (chiller)
Type of Filter (overhead/internal/canister) : Eheim External Canister 2260 (change with 1262 pump , flowrate 3400/L)
Filter media used : 10 kg of biohome , biohome plus, bioballs, sponge
How long has your tank been set up : 12 months
Water change frequency :
a) used to be once a week, 50% . Dose with Aquaplus Nutrifin anti-chlorine 20 squeeze.
b) due to BBA, trim many leaves with BBA, sucked gravel with BBA into a big container with filter wool, and pump back water to tank. After that do 20% water change, twice a week. Dose with Aquaplus Nutrifin 10 squeeze.

Water surface movement : visible water movement on top due to power head inside to push more movement /circulation. The top movement is acceptable than fan blowing .
Circulation : The water from my external reactor is released to my tank a lily pad at the bottom of the tank, another 600l/h power head is on top of the lily pad . Most of the CO2 fine bubble escape out flow up and then blow further away by the power head.

Chemical Properties (Fill what you can)
---------------------------------------

Carbonate Hardness (kh): 7, tested with JBL test kit.
Total Hardness (gH):
PH : Test with Hanna Test Pen
CO2 injection 2 hrs before lighting
Before lights on – 6.6
1 hr after lights on – 6.5
2 hr after lights on – 6.5
3 hr after lights on – 6.5
8 hr after lights on – 6.4
NH4 (ppm):
NO2 (ppm):
NO3 (ppm): show 30-40ppm if using Sera test kit
PO4 (ppm):
Fe (ppm):

Bioload (Your Fish and Plants)
------------------------------
Plants :
, Xiao Gu Jing, Balansae, lots of Crypts,lot of Java fern and Java fern windelov on driftwood, Vallisneria Americana, Echi Oriental, xmas moss wall


Critters :
Cardinal – 70+
Oto – 4
Yamato – 2
Cherry Shrimps – 30+
rasbora - 6
bleeding heart - 5
rummy nose - 20 +
diamond tetra - 1
dwarf cory - 1
pencil fish - 3
coral red pencil - 1

Describe your problem :

Having BBA and Fuzz algae on many leaves and gravel. Treatment with Hydrogen peroxide with syringe on the gravel and driftwood. BBA became pink then to white/gray after that, but Green algae start to grow on the drift wood after that. Slowly the BBA come again. Fuzz/hair starts to grow on the gravel also, and on the leaves.
Green spot algae always come back on the front glass . Have to clean every week.

1. CO2 injection rate very high even using the external reactor.
2. Is my dosing routine appropriate?
3. What could also be causing my algae problem?

Appreciate your comment and thanks in advance.

[PeterGwee]

[quote:d94be3ec7c="neon"]1. CO2 injection rate very high even using the external reactor.
2. Is my dosing routine appropriate?
3. What could also be causing my algae problem?[/quote:d94be3ec7c]

1)Seems so in your case. Your reactor size is too small as is evident by the escaping of bubbles from the reactor outlet. Consider making a larger unit yourself using pvc pipes and using an individual powerhead for running the reactor instead of your filter flow which tends to slow down after a while due to clogging. Feed the output of the CO2 into the powerhead suction (no backpressure as it is always sucking and hence less potential for leaks. Does not require a checkvalve as well.)

2)Cut to 2x a week.

3)Some funny results from your test kits. Remove the coral chips from the filter and add only baking soda after every water change to buffer the water. A KH of 3-4dKH is fine. You do not really want to add a variable to your readings do you? The readings seems way off in your case...Is your critters fine? Do a very large water change of 80% to reset the tank well. Do your test set again without the coral chips in your filter. Add back the baking soda to target a KH of 3. Watch your pH for the day or so.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[juggler]

As Peter said, cut down to 2x fertilisation per week first.

Further, if you intend to continue coral chips, you don't need to dose MgSO4 at all. Coral chips already contains the Mg and Ca. Perhaps reduce the coral sand by half in your filter to get about 4 dkh. I also use coral chips but did not get such a high kH as yours.

[neon]

[quote:1acac4e2af="PeterGwee"][quote:1acac4e2af="neon"]1. CO2 injection rate very high even using the external reactor.
2. Is my dosing routine appropriate?
3. What could also be causing my algae problem?[/quote:1acac4e2af]

1)Seems so in your case. Your reactor size is too small as is evident by the escaping of bubbles from the reactor outlet. Consider making a larger unit yourself using pvc pipes and using an individual powerhead for running the reactor instead of your filter flow which tends to slow down after a while due to clogging. Feed the output of the CO2 into the powerhead suction (no backpressure as it is always sucking and hence less potential for leaks. Does not require a checkvalve as well.)

2)Cut to 2x a week.

3)Some funny results from your test kits. Remove the coral chips from the filter and add only baking soda after every water change to buffer the water. A KH of 3-4dKH is fine. You do not really want to add a variable to your readings do you? The readings seems way off in your case...Is your critters fine? Do a very large water change of 80% to reset the tank well. Do your test set again without the coral chips in your filter. Add back the baking soda to target a KH of 3. Watch your pH for the day or so.

Regards
Peter Gwee [/quote:1acac4e2af]
Any URL on how to DIY this PVC reactor ? Is it external or internal ? What should the desire flowrate for the powerhead for 6x2x2 tank? What is the better way of return the reacted water (with CO2) , rainbar or lily pad ? Do I need another stand alone powerhead inside the tank , on top of the existing water return from carnister and the powerhead with co2 reacted ?

removal of the coral chips and 80% water change can reset the tank so fast ? Assuming after this is being done, and the dKH is 2, to top up baking soda, to raise 1dKH need to 1 tsp per 100L , my tank 6x2x2 (500L) => 5 tsp , is this correct ? How fast can I see the rising of the dKH after the dosing of baking soda (within how many hours ) ?

I have seen so many nice tank donot use power head to push the CO2 and water circulation, as I can see that the water in the tank is fairly come, with just the water return from carnister. Why is so as compare to my tank , as water has push so hard for better circulation ?

BTW, what is fuzz, light,fine brown algae (finer than green hair algae) on the gravel ? Is it the dead green hair algae ?

Thanks in advance !

[PeterGwee]

[quote:8c96db6e53="neon"]Any URL on how to DIY this PVC reactor ? Is it external or internal ? What should the desire flowrate for the powerhead for 6x2x2 tank? What is the better way of return the reacted water (with CO2) , rainbar or lily pad ? Do I need another stand alone powerhead inside the tank , on top of the existing water return from carnister and the powerhead with co2 reacted ?[/quote:8c96db6e53]

Its just the plain simple external reactor that Ghazanfar Ghori has on his website.
A 500gph powerhead should do it.
A spraybar gives even flow which is important for your big tank.
No.

[quote:8c96db6e53="neon"]removal of the coral chips and 80% water change can reset the tank so fast ? Assuming after this is being done, and the dKH is 2, to top up baking soda, to raise 1dKH need to 1 tsp per 100L , my tank 6x2x2 (500L) => 5 tsp , is this correct ? How fast can I see the rising of the dKH after the dosing of baking soda (within how many hours ) ?[/quote:8c96db6e53]

Yes, our tap water has little KH. The purpose is not to drop your KH but to put a stop to your variable KH reading with coral chips. Do you want to test your KH/pH value throughout the entire week or rather just the pH since with baking soda the KH will remain pretty stable?
Not sure about the amount but you can do some trial and error to find the KH level that you like with your kit. Personally, I would advice you to get another brand of KH kit to double check on your KH reading.
Depends on how good your tank circulation is....typically, 2-3 hrs should be more than enough.

[quote:8c96db6e53="neon"]I have seen so many nice tank donot use power head to push the CO2 and water circulation, as I can see that the water in the tank is fairly come, with just the water return from carnister. Why is so as compare to my tank , as water has push so hard for better circulation ?[/quote:8c96db6e53]

Depends on how you return your flow...spraybar designs are good. Good slow even flow along the bottom back of the tank along the gravel line is good. The issue now is that your rate of CO2 is way too high and that you have bubbles escaping from your reactor points to a too small reactor. You can slow down the flow but that will slow down your CO2 response time as well. I would not touch on that if you did not mention that but rather suspect your KH kit...some funny reading perharps.

[quote:8c96db6e53="neon"]BTW, what is fuzz, light,fine brown algae (finer than green hair algae) on the gravel ? Is it the dead green hair algae ? [/quote:8c96db6e53]

Hard to tell without some pictures.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

[quote:eaab9a85d4="PeterGwee"][quote:eaab9a85d4="neon"]Any URL on how to DIY this PVC reactor ? Is it external or internal ? What should the desire flowrate for the powerhead for 6x2x2 tank? What is the better way of return the reacted water (with CO2) , rainbar or lily pad ? Do I need another stand alone powerhead inside the tank , on top of the existing water return from carnister and the powerhead with co2 reacted ?[/quote:eaab9a85d4]

Its just the plain simple external reactor that Ghazanfar Ghori has on his website.
A 500gph powerhead should do it.
A spraybar gives even flow which is important for your big tank.
No.

[quote:eaab9a85d4="neon"]removal of the coral chips and 80% water change can reset the tank so fast ? Assuming after this is being done, and the dKH is 2, to top up baking soda, to raise 1dKH need to 1 tsp per 100L , my tank 6x2x2 (500L) => 5 tsp , is this correct ? How fast can I see the rising of the dKH after the dosing of baking soda (within how many hours ) ?[/quote:eaab9a85d4]

Yes, our tap water has little KH. The purpose is not to drop your KH but to put a stop to your variable KH reading with coral chips. Do you want to test your KH/pH value throughout the entire week or rather just the pH since with baking soda the KH will remain pretty stable?
Not sure about the amount but you can do some trial and error to find the KH level that you like with your kit. Personally, I would advice you to get another brand of KH kit to double check on your KH reading.
Depends on how good your tank circulation is....typically, 2-3 hrs should be more than enough.

[quote:eaab9a85d4="neon"]I have seen so many nice tank donot use power head to push the CO2 and water circulation, as I can see that the water in the tank is fairly come, with just the water return from carnister. Why is so as compare to my tank , as water has push so hard for better circulation ?[/quote:eaab9a85d4]

Depends on how you return your flow...spraybar designs are good. Good slow even flow along the bottom back of the tank along the gravel line is good. The issue now is that your rate of CO2 is way too high and that you have bubbles escaping from your reactor points to a too small reactor. You can slow down the flow but that will slow down your CO2 response time as well. I would not touch on that if you did not mention that but rather suspect your KH kit...some funny reading perharps.

[quote:eaab9a85d4="neon"]BTW, what is fuzz, light,fine brown algae (finer than green hair algae) on the gravel ? Is it the dead green hair algae ? [/quote:eaab9a85d4]

Hard to tell without some pictures.

Regards
Peter Gwee [/quote:eaab9a85d4]
Sucked out most the brown fine line algae on gravel. Trimmed some BGA infected leaves, still have a lot leaves with BGA.

Then I have done ~80% water change and removed coral sand from the carnister and dose NO3,PO4,Mg, K as usual. Measured dKH=>3 (no need to dose baking soda at this moment), four hrs after water change. Tested PH 6.2-6.3, just after CO2 injection was turned off at 10:30pm , but the light is on until 11pm.

What else should I do and be watch out for ?

[PeterGwee]

[quote:bebfcf306d="neon"]Sucked out most the brown fine line algae on gravel. Trimmed some BGA infected leaves, still have a lot leaves with BGA.[/quote:bebfcf306d]

BGA now?

[quote:bebfcf306d="neon"]Then I have done ~80% water change and removed coral sand from the carnister and dose NO3,PO4,Mg, K as usual. Measured dKH=>3 (no need to dose baking soda at this moment), four hrs after water change. Tested PH 6.2-6.3, just after CO2 injection was turned off at 10:30pm , but the light is on until 11pm.[/quote:bebfcf306d]

Get yourself another brand of KH kit (AP is good) and test the KH. Is it the same? Calibrate your pH pen...

[quote:bebfcf306d="neon"]What else should I do and be watch out for ?[/quote:bebfcf306d]

Watch for pearling towards the end of the day...Java ferns are quite good for this purpose as is riccia (better..as it is easy to see it pearl with good CO2.). If algae returns, do a reset again and check your CO2. You still need a very high rate of CO2 to bring down the pH to good range? Check for leaks at joints. The way you run your CO2 system is prone to leaks due to loads of backpressure.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

[quote:b1157eb3e4="PeterGwee"][quote:b1157eb3e4="neon"]Sucked out most the brown fine line algae on gravel. Trimmed some BGA infected leaves, still have a lot leaves with BGA.[/quote:b1157eb3e4]

BGA now?

[quote:b1157eb3e4="neon"]Then I have done ~80% water change and removed coral sand from the carnister and dose NO3,PO4,Mg, K as usual. Measured dKH=>3 (no need to dose baking soda at this moment), four hrs after water change. Tested PH 6.2-6.3, just after CO2 injection was turned off at 10:30pm , but the light is on until 11pm.[/quote:b1157eb3e4]

Get yourself another brand of KH kit (AP is good) and test the KH. Is it the same? Calibrate your pH pen...

[quote:b1157eb3e4="neon"]What else should I do and be watch out for ?[/quote:b1157eb3e4]

Watch for pearling towards the end of the day...Java ferns are quite good for this purpose as is riccia (better..as it is easy to see it pearl with good CO2.). If algae returns, do a reset again and check your CO2. You still need a very high rate of CO2 to bring down the pH to good range? Check for leaks at joints. The way you run your CO2 system is prone to leaks due to loads of backpressure.

Regards
Peter Gwee [/quote:b1157eb3e4]
Sorry typo error , should be BBA.

I think I have the AP KH test kit. Shall try that to see.

You suspect CO2 leak ? Shall check each join. Why do you say it is prone to leak due to loads of backpressure ?

Just tested the PH is the morning at 8:13am (without CO2 injection yet) is 6.4 at various locations. So it is still good , right ?

[geoffrey]

I don't think your CO2 is an issue. You use a pH pen to measure and chance are you are in and above 30ppm. Take a look at other things.

[PeterGwee]

Trim off all infected leaves...no point saving them anymore. They ain't good anyway. If plant mass drops drastically, add back more new plants.

Since you are already doing the EI method, all that is basically left is CO2, maintenance and circulation issue (for big tanks only).

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

[quote:16d41e1e9e="geoffrey"]I don't think your CO2 is an issue. You use a pH pen to measure and chance are you are in and above 30ppm. Take a look at other things.[/quote:16d41e1e9e]
Geoffrey,

Yes, to really sure the CO2 is really high , my CO2 injection before end of lighting hits with PH 6.0-6.1 and dKH 3.5 (JBL test kit). With the AP Water hardness test kit (3 separate test solution , bottle 1 - 3 drops, bottle 2 - 4 drops, and bottle 3 - 12 drops ) => 120 ppm , and how to convert to dKH ?

I can see java fern windelov is pearling like mad. After one day of sucking up the light, brown, fine hair-like algae appear on the gravel.

I have so much BBA , don't where to start to trim.

[neon]

[quote:5957369b07="PeterGwee"]Trim off all infected leaves...no point saving them anymore. They ain't good anyway. If plant mass drops drastically, add back more new plants.

Since you are already doing the EI method, all that is basically left is CO2, maintenance and circulation issue (for big tanks only).

Regards
Peter Gwee [/quote:5957369b07]
Checked all CO2 joined valve and tube l, using eaking test with soap water . So far no leak is being detected.

Do not know where to start ! Should trim the leaves first and stablize before adding more plants ? As plants leaves constantly being attacked by BBA , wouldn't adding plants will be a waste ? Any cheap high sucking and fast growing plant to be suggested ? How do I keep them in the tank without planting into the gravel ?

What is EI method ? Now CO2 I inject really high (PH 6.0-6.1) and fauna no casualty, is it still a problem there ? Although it is bit of wasteful , but at least can ensure it is really enough . Is this assumption correct ?

With a 1262 pump - 3400L/h and powerhead - 600L/h, do you still think circulation is still an issue ? No rain bar is being used now.

What is possible problem with maintenance ? Sucking up the BBA and brown hair-like algae from the gravel ? Scrubbing of the BBA from the driftwood, scrubbing front glass with green spot algae .

Cheers

[PeterGwee]

All these issues are from poor CO2. I do not care what your kits say if something does not seem right. (You are dosing via the estimative index method hence nutrients is not the issue here. Light? You should have enough.) Circulation...you are only using the outlet pipe from eheim at one end of the tank? Yours is a 6footer....Will there be any issue with current reaching the other parts of the tank with just one single point outlet?....long lag time? Think about it.

[quote:a4b4e22414="neon"]Do not know where to start ! Should trim the leaves first and stablize before adding more plants ? As plants leaves constantly being attacked by BBA , wouldn't adding plants will be a waste ? Any cheap high sucking and fast growing plant to be suggested ? How do I keep them in the tank without planting into the gravel ?[/quote:a4b4e22414]

No, just go in and trim the tank. Add back cheap plants if you feel its a waste for more expensive stuff (you can add back the more expensive stuff later when the tank evens out.). Get fast growers...you can browse through the flora albums on this site. Main key is to get the CO2 right.

Okay, I'll try to suggest a solution with your current equipment then. Continue using your reactor inline with your filter output. Split the output of the reactor to 2 spraybars (3-4foot long) and place it at the bottom back of the tank spraying across the gravel line towards the front of the tank (place the spraybars such that they cover the entire length of the tank). Place the powerhead at the corner of the tank and hook it to a spraybar. Place the spraybar along the side of the tank at mid level and spray it across the tank (not much help with that kind of flow for a big tank).

Summary...
1)Go in an attack the algae. Add back cheap plants to keep the plant mass high.
2)Do the large water change after that.
3)CO2..add a bit more (you have an issue as you have no idea what your rate is?)..careful here. Do this only when you have time to eyeball your critters the entire day. If the critters are fine, you have no issues. Now..watch if the BBA comes back or not. If it returns, add a bit more CO2 again but make sure your critters are fine. Do this till the BBA stops growing. Make sure you keep dosing the nutrients as you are currently doing and do not stop when you are doing the CO2 adjustment!

Regards
Peter Gwee

[nicholas88]

Sorry, Would like to check with you if too much of Co2 will Algae will create?

[PeterGwee]

[quote:31167c5c0e="nicholas88"]Sorry, Would like to check with you if too much of Co2 will Algae will create?[/quote:31167c5c0e]

If algae has a foothold on the tank in the first place, they will keep growing along with the plants even when the conditions are improved. Things are not limited for both plants and algae in this case. Harassing the algae and providing good conditions for the plants is the key thing to getting rid of it. Focus on the plant growth rather than the algae. Keep the plants happy and remove all traces of algae followed by a large water change. Add back the nutrients such that they are in non-limiting range. Keep the CO2 in good shape to ensure high pearling rates.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[nicholas88]

[quote:a881867b62="PeterGwee"][quote:a881867b62="nicholas88"]Sorry, Would like to check with you if too much of Co2 will Algae will create?[/quote:a881867b62]

If algae has a foothold on the tank in the first place, they will keep growing along with the plants even when the conditions are improved. Things are not limited for both plants and algae in this case. Harassing the algae and providing good conditions for the plants is the key thing to getting rid of it. Focus on the plant growth rather than the algae. Keep the plants happy and remove all traces of algae followed by a large water change. Add back the nutrients such that they are in non-limiting range. Keep the CO2 in good shape to ensure high pearling rates.

Regards
Peter Gwee [/quote:a881867b62]

I understand your theory but too much of Co2 in tank will have excess to let algae grow, Am I right?

[PeterGwee]

If you really understand, I doubt you would ask that question again. Algae can grow in a CO2 limited tank...most have the ability to extract carbon from bicarbonate sources if it really runs that low. Not all plants are able to do that mind you. Plants are bigger in mass and needs more nutrients and carbon in order to do well. Algae on the other hand has very little bio-mass and can live next to nothing. Higher CO2 is condusive to both plants and algae but the main focus is to grow plants. Give them what they want!

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

[quote:682a0b68e1="PeterGwee"]All these issues are from poor CO2. I do not care what your kits say if something does not seem right. (You are dosing via the estimative index method hence nutrients is not the issue here. Light? You should have enough.) Circulation...you are only using the outlet pipe from eheim at one end of the tank? Yours is a 6footer....Will there be any issue with current reaching the other parts of the tank with just one single point outlet?....long lag time? Think about it.

[quote:682a0b68e1="neon"]Do not know where to start ! Should trim the leaves first and stablize before adding more plants ? As plants leaves constantly being attacked by BBA , wouldn't adding plants will be a waste ? Any cheap high sucking and fast growing plant to be suggested ? How do I keep them in the tank without planting into the gravel ?[/quote:682a0b68e1]

No, just go in and trim the tank. Add back cheap plants if you feel its a waste for more expensive stuff (you can add back the more expensive stuff later when the tank evens out.). Get fast growers...you can browse through the flora albums on this site. Main key is to get the CO2 right.

Okay, I'll try to suggest a solution with your current equipment then. Continue using your reactor inline with your filter output. Split the output of the reactor to 2 spraybars (3-4foot long) and place it at the bottom back of the tank spraying across the gravel line towards the front of the tank (place the spraybars such that they cover the entire length of the tank). Place the powerhead at the corner of the tank and hook it to a spraybar. Place the spraybar along the side of the tank at mid level and spray it across the tank (not much help with that kind of flow for a big tank).

Summary...
1)Go in an attack the algae. Add back cheap plants to keep the plant mass high.
2)Do the large water change after that.
3)CO2..add a bit more (you have an issue as you have no idea what your rate is?)..careful here. Do this only when you have time to eyeball your critters the entire day. If the critters are fine, you have no issues. Now..watch if the BBA comes back or not. If it returns, add a bit more CO2 again but make sure your critters are fine. Do this till the BBA stops growing. Make sure you keep dosing the nutrients as you are currently doing and do not stop when you are doing the CO2 adjustment!

Regards
Peter Gwee [/quote:682a0b68e1]
Shall try your method regarding the 2 spray bars for the bottom, except how to fix a mid level spray bar as I have a full xmas moss wall at the back ?

Shall trim all infected plants asap.

[neon]

Also noted chuck's CO2 calculator is using KH which also has conversion to PPM.

What is the common unit of measurement should I use :

a) My JBL KH test kit shows 3.5 dKH
b) AP kit (3 solutions water hardness test kit) shows 120 PPM

While using Chuck's CO2 calculator , it requires :
a) PH
b) KH (should I should JBL's dKH value or the AP PPM)

Please advice !!

[PeterGwee]

Not sure how come your AP KH kit measures in ppm but mine is in dKH though. If it measures KH (carbonate hardness), you are fine. Just convert it back to dKH.

17.9ppm = 1dKH

Regards
Peter Gwee