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Thread: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

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    How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

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    Hi everyone,

    Can the members here inform how much in grams or teaspoon of Potassium Phosphate to dose for 4 feet middle to heavy planted tank.

    I was dosing EI fertilization ( both Macro & Micro) when I started the tank.
    Tank volume: 290 litres / 80 US gallons
    My lights are T5s 54 watts X 4 pcs = 216 watts.
    Watts per gallon : 2.7 watts/gal (Medium lights are between 2 - 3 watts per gallon)


    About 3 months back I started getting green spot algae (GSA) on glass, rock and plants.

    I was advised by a an LFS to dose more phosphate.
    So I started adding 6 grams of Potassium Phosphate X 3 times a week ( dry powder form from Dr.Mallik's shop).

    But the GSA has not gone so far.
    I read on the web that too much phosphate is bad for fish and shrimps.
    For a mid light tank 80 gallon, one should dose +/- 1/4 teaspoon ( 2 grams) KH2P04 3x a week


    Thanks

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Hi,
    Wah! sooooo quiet suddenly. No reply from any one.

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    same issue as well bro. i have so far reduced my lighting period by 1 hr and increased dosage of Seachem Pottasium.
    I'm also losing this battle, i have removed some of the plants that were badly affected.






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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ipit View Post
    same issue as well bro. i have so far reduced my lighting period by 1 hr and increased dosage of Seachem Pottasium.
    I'm also losing this battle, i have removed some of the plants that were badly affected.





    Hi,
    Your plants' leaves look exactly the same as mine (covered with GSA). But I see your plants are getting enough Co2. The leaves groth look compact. For mine there is gap between the leaves. I think maybe not enough light?
    What's your lighting setup like. LED / T5s / how long is your light period?

    How long you have GSA?
    Cheers

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    There isn't a fixed "best" dosage amount (due to the wide variations in tank and plant setups), especially for specific nutrient dosing, so you just have to adjust dosages and observe, then adjust some more... its all trial and error.

    If you are following the recommended dosages from the bottle or from EI dosing calculators, those would just be estimates as they don't take into account actual plant density or their nutrient take-up rate.

    The best way to help gauge optimal levels is to get a phosphate test kit... test before and after dosing, and over the course of a week, thats the only way to know if there are sufficient levels of phosphate or too much of it accumulating in the water column.

    Btw, dealing with GSA just by increasing phosphate levels is anecdotal at best, some people find that it works, while others find that it doesn't work, so its not a magic bullet... there are many other possible factors at play.

    Light does makes a huge difference in GSA growth though, i've noticed in my tanks with less light, GSA appears very slowly, sometimes none at all, but once i increase the light intensity or photoperiod in the same tank, GSA starts popping up everywhere. When i decrease light, it gradually disappears again.

    Unfortunately in planted tanks, most of us prefer to blast more light on our plants to speed up growth, so thats a favourable environment for GSA too.

    How to solve GSA? I also have no fool-proof solution... so far i've managed to eliminate most types of algae from my tanks, but GSA is the only one that is still around, even after various treatments. The best i can do is to slow down their growth to tolerable levels (ie. only need to scrape away small patches from tank glass every 2-3 months), but thats with a combination of moderate lighting and sufficient Co2, minimal excess nutrients, lots of plant density and utilizing various algae eaters (especially nerite snails).
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    There isn't a fixed "best" dosage amount (due to the wide variations in tank and plant setups), especially for specific nutrient dosing, so you just have to adjust dosages and observe, then adjust some more... its all trial and error. If you are following the recommended dosages from the bottle or from EI dosing calculators, those would just be estimates as they don't take into account actual plant density or their nutrient take-up rate.
    Hi UA,

    When I first started the tank, I was told by the EI supplier (not by DR.Malik) to mix 1 teaspoon of potassium phosphate in 500ml water and to dose 60ml of stock solution for 3X a week.
    After I got GSA, the LFS advised to dose 3/4 teaspoon for 3X a week.
    But GSA did not decrease even after 4 months of same dose amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    The best way to help gauge optimal levels is to get a phosphate test kit... test before and after dosing, and over the course of a week, thats the only way to know if there are sufficient levels of phosphate or too much of it accumulating in the water column.
    Are these test kits reliable? That's way it did not occur to me to get the test kit. Which brand is reliable? JBL, Sear? Kindly inform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    Btw, dealing with GSA just by increasing phosphate levels is anecdotal at best, some people find that it works, while others find that it doesn't work, so its not a magic bullet... there are many other possible factors at play.
    To the truth, after about 3 months of starting the tank, I had so much trouble in getting the right Co2. My plants started to melt. Even now I'm not seeing healthy plants. I can see I've Co2 issues to resolve as there are lots of BBA all over the tank.

    I started getting GSA at the same time I got BBA. So could GSA be linked to not enough Co2 in the tank?


    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    Light does makes a huge difference in GSA growth though, i've noticed in my tanks with less light, GSA appears very slowly, sometimes none at all, but once i increase the light intensity or photoperiod in the same tank, GSA starts popping up everywhere. When i decrease light, it gradually disappears again.Unfortunately in planted tanks, most of us prefer to blast more light on our plants to speed up growth, so thats a favourable environment for GSA too.
    As for lights, I can safely say I'm below high light. Some of my plants display the tell tale signs of lack of light. There is gap between the leaves of Staurogyne Repens, Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides' and also my red plants (Ludwigia Palustris) leaves are green in colour. The LFS told me this is surely a sign of less lights. What is your opinion? :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    utilizing various algae eaters (especially nerite snails).
    I got only one snail and that guy is laying eggs all over the tank.
    Just one snail.......what would happen if I get a few!

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    When I first started the tank, I was told by the EI supplier (not by DR.Malik) to mix 1 teaspoon of potassium phosphate in 500ml water and to dose 60ml of stock solution for 3X a week.
    After I got GSA, the LFS advised to dose 3/4 teaspoon for 3X a week.
    But GSA did not decrease even after 4 months of same dose amount.
    Those GSA that already in the plant leaf will not go away by it self. My recommendation is trim and replant the new healthy leaf, throw away the unhealthy one.

    Check the location of your tank, is it facing window or located nearby window?

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    I started getting GSA at the same time I got BBA. So could GSA be linked to not enough Co2 in the tank?
    Yes all algae issue can be link due to poor CO2. The trick to control algae is by growing healthy plants. Algae normally stay away in healthy tank. Healthy plants need CO2.
    -Robert
    Aquascaping is a marriage between Art and Farming
    My Blog: http://aquatic-art.blogspot.com/

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    I only noticed in terms of GSA invasion of plants is to get fast growing plants. The will only "attack" slow growing plants.

    For my plants that has been overrun by GSA I remove them entirely as what UA suggested. the only adage issue that plagues me is GSA that just refuses to go away.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    I think your tank is lack of co2 try to crank up the co2.
    Your lighting is good more to the medium high side.
    What is your full tank size 4x?x?.

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    Are these test kits reliable? That's way it did not occur to me to get the test kit. Which brand is reliable? JBL, Sear? Kindly inform.
    Not sure about other brands, but i use the API phosphate test kit... it works quite well, was able to monitor the changes in phosphate levels when i was adjusting my fertilizer dosages.

    If i'm not wrong, the phosphate test kits only measure inorganic phosphate levels (ie. from fertilizers), so the organic phosphates that are generated from fish waste are probably not measured, so the overall levels could be higher. But for the purposes of measuring the effectiveness of fertilizer dosing, its good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    As for lights, I can safely say I'm below high light. Some of my plants display the tell tale signs of lack of light. There is gap between the leaves of Staurogyne Repens, Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides' and also my red plants (Ludwigia Palustris) leaves are green in colour. The LFS told me this is surely a sign of less lights. What is your opinion? :-)
    Light intensity is indeed an important component, but how well the plants grow and their coloration doesn't only depend on light, it also depends on whether there is enough Co2 and nutrients to keep up with the lights. If there are shortages of Co2 or any nutrients, even with lots of lights the plants photosynthesis, growth and color development will still be restricted. Circulation and distribution of Co2 and nutrients are also very important factors too.

    I guess you have to decide what pace you want your plants to grow at. With less light, plants may grow slower and exhibit less color, but they also require less Co2 and less nutrients, this makes it much easier to balance everything in a tank (and easier to manage algae too)... but when using more light, more Co2 and more nutrients are required for the plants to grow faster, thats when it becomes much trickier to balance all 3 parameters, because if any of them are not in balance, algae will take advantage of it and bloom much faster.

    In general, its always best to optimize the Co2 and nutrients first and observe the effects on plant growth and coloration, only if everything is stable and algae is manageable, then can look at bumping up the light intensity further, rather than the other way around... increasing lights while still fighting algae issue isn't usually a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    I got only one snail and that guy is laying eggs all over the tank.
    Just one snail.......what would happen if I get a few!
    I guess you got a female nerite snail... i also had my fair share of nerite snails laying eggs all over my tank glass and hardscape too.

    What i actually did over time was to remove those nerite snails which laid eggs in my tanks, while keeping the ones that didn't (there was a period when i kept many tanks, so each tank had 2-3 nerite snails and i was able to observe them). So in the process of de-commissioning and setting up new tanks and removing the female nerite snails, i was eventually left with nerite snails which never laid any eggs, so those were "highly likely" the male ones. So far it seems to be correct as my latest tanks are still egg-free.

    Maybe someone can do this sort of nerite snail monitoring/culling on a commercial scale and sell only confirmed male nerite snails, i think there will be many interested buyers.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
    www.urbanaquaria.com

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by zerofighterx101 View Post
    I think your tank is lack of co2 try to crank up the co2.
    Your lighting is good more to the medium high side.
    What is your full tank size 4x?x?.
    Hi,
    My tank is 4 ft (L) X 18" (B) X 22" (H)

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    Not sure about other brands, but i use the API phosphate test kit... it works quite well, was able to monitor the changes in phosphate levels when i was adjusting my fertilizer dosages.
    If i'm not wrong, the phosphate test kits only measure inorganic phosphate levels (ie. from fertilizers), so the organic phosphates that are generated from fish waste are probably not measured, so the overall levels could be higher. But for the purposes of measuring the effectiveness of fertilizer dosing, its good enough.
    Hi UA,
    I guess you're right, Even if the test kit is not accurate, it will at least give guideline. I bought a API test kit and did a complete water test before water change last night. The reads are as follows:
    ph. 6.6 ( using API test kit)
    ph. 6.9 (using UP ph test pen)
    No2: 0 ppm
    No3: 40 ppm
    Kh : 6
    Phosphate : 10 ppm ( please see photo below)

    The phosphate is very high I think as I was doing 3/4 teaspoon for 3 X a week.
    The actual reading might even be higher as there is the fish food, fish poo and the organic matter from the rotting plant matter due to Co2 problem.

    I did a 50% water change last night. This morning I did not dose Potassium Phosphate. The main reason being the T5 light set I got on loan from the LFS was actually running only 2 T5s only.
    So my actual lights are (54watts X 2 pcs)=108 watts / 80 gallons = 1.35 watts per gallon.
    This is I think low light for now.
    I'm going to get my repaired LED next week.

    So was I right on not to dose Potassium Phosphate as it might cause excess fertilizers in a low light tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    In general, its always best to optimize the Co2 and nutrients first and observe the effects on plant growth and coloration, only if everything is stable and algae is manageable, then can look at bumping up the light intensity further, rather than the other way around... increasing lights while still fighting algae issue isn't usually a good idea.
    I think I have managed to get Co2 to the right level over the past week as all the plants have stopped melting. The carpet plants like Monte Carlo had started to grow fast. Even with 1.35watts per gallon, the plants are starting to pearl after 30 minutes the lights are switched on.

    While I was cleaning the GSA on the tank last night, I noticed that GSA comes off very easily. Previously I had scrub quite a few times to take it off.
    Is this a sign that GSA is weakening?


    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    I guess you got a female nerite snail... i also had my fair share of nerite snails laying eggs all over my tank glass and hardscape too.
    I have always that that nerite snails were asexual. I didn't know that they had male & female

    I don't think 1 snail is enough for a 4 feet tank. I guess I'll have take this girl to the nearest pond then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    Maybe someone can do this sort of nerite snail monitoring/culling on a commercial scale and sell only confirmed male nerite snails, i think there will be many interested buyers.
    That's a good idea. I don't mind paying more for such snails. Maybe $5 per snail?

    Cheers.



    Last edited by Filet-O-Fish; 14th Mar 2015 at 17:20.

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    Phosphate : 10 ppm ( please see photo below)

    The phosphate is very high I think as I was doing 3/4 teaspoon for 3 X a week.
    The actual reading might even be higher as there is the fish food, fish poo and the organic matter from the rotting plant matter due to Co2 problem.

    I did a 50% water change last night. This morning I did not dose Potassium Phosphate. The main reason being the T5 light set I got on loan from the LFS was actually running only 2 T5s only.
    So my actual lights are (54watts X 2 pcs)=108 watts / 80 gallons = 1.35 watts per gallon.
    This is I think low light for now.
    I'm going to get my repaired LED next week.

    So was I right on not to dose Potassium Phosphate as it might cause excess fertilizers in a low light tank?
    Yeah, 10ppm of phosphates is way more than enough for the plants to use... it'll probably take them a while to consume all of it so you could just stop dosing until its mostly used up. Thereafter reduce the dosages so that the phosphate levels are kept at a more moderate level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    While I was cleaning the GSA on the tank last night, I noticed that GSA comes off very easily. Previously I had scrub quite a few times to take it off.
    Is this a sign that GSA is weakening?
    Most likely the higher phosphate levels are helping to soften the GSA, that seems to be one of the effects of increasing phosphates, thereby making it easier for algae eaters like nerite snails and probably even otocinclus to clear them up (the GSA becomes soft enough for them to munch on).

    Btw, i remember reading some online articles mentioning that GSA are actually a form of diatoms that attach to surfaces and secrete a hard shell (thats why it is hard to scrape off) and green algae grows on it (which is why it looks like green spots), quite interesting stuff.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Hi UA
    what's your opinion about No3 at 40ppm. Is that OK?

    Can high phosphate be bad for red cherry shrimps and Amano shrimps?

    Like you tell, I'll keep a look out on the phosphates reading. Once I get my permanent lighting, I adjust as needed.

    BTW just for info, since I have stopped Potassium Phosphate, I'm adding Potassium Sulfate to makeup for the missing potassium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    Most likely the higher phosphate levels are helping to soften the GSA, that seems to be one of the effects of increasing phosphates, thereby making it easier for algae eaters like nerite snails and probably even otocinclus to clear them up (the GSA becomes soft enough for them to munch on).
    I've been doing Potassium Phosphate 3/4 teaspoon for the past 4 months and yet the growth will be more and more on the rocks and plants. But after I have gotten my Co2 level just nice ( to the best of my ability), there has been no new GSA spots on the glass or plants.
    The next target is BBA. Wish me luck.

    Cheers.

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    Hi UA
    what's your opinion about No3 at 40ppm. Is that OK?

    Can high phosphate be bad for red cherry shrimps and Amano shrimps?

    Like you tell, I'll keep a look out on the phosphates reading. Once I get my permanent lighting, I adjust as needed.

    BTW just for info, since I have stopped Potassium Phosphate, I'm adding Potassium Sulfate to makeup for the missing potassium.
    Cheers.
    40ppm of nitrates is okay, most fishes and shrimps can adapt to it and shouldn't encounter issues with those levels.

    I guess phosphate would need to be much higher to be of danger to livestock (unlike ammonia or nitrite where even low levels can be lethal). If your fishes and shrimps are still not showing signs of stress, then its probably still okay. The main worry most people have with high phosphate levels is some tank imbalance triggering certain algae growth which utilize the excess nutrients to bloom... otherwise in a tank with fast growing and high plant density, it should be used up by the plants quick enough before algae cause issues.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    40ppm of nitrates is okay, most fishes and shrimps can adapt to it and shouldn't encounter issues with those levels.

    I guess phosphate would need to be much higher to be of danger to livestock (unlike ammonia or nitrite where even low levels can be lethal). If your fishes and shrimps are still not showing signs of stress, then its probably still okay. The main worry most people have with high phosphate levels is some tank imbalance triggering certain algae growth which utilize the excess nutrients to bloom... otherwise in a tank with fast growing and high plant density, it should be used up by the plants quick enough before algae cause issues.
    Can BBA and BGA be triggered by high phosphates?

    The main reason I had a BBA outbreak was due to one issue only (according to me at least). The culprit: Insufficient Co2 in the tank.

    I was dosing the same quantity of fertilizers (EI) ever since I started the tank but because there was not enough Co2, the struggling plants can use only as much fertz as it could. The rest of the fertz in the water column was unused and was instead used by algae. Right?

    I notice that during the past 1 to 11/2 week, my plants are bouncing back to good health as mentioned before.
    Hope the plants will soon overtake BBA.

    Just out of curiosity, apart from EI, and ADA liquid fertz, how else can I fertilize the plants? The pros and cons.....please.

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    Can BBA and BGA be triggered by high phosphates?

    The main reason I had a BBA outbreak was due to one issue only (according to me at least). The culprit: Insufficient Co2 in the tank.

    I was dosing the same quantity of fertilizers (EI) ever since I started the tank but because there was not enough Co2, the struggling plants can use only as much fertz as it could. The rest of the fertz in the water column was unused and was instead used by algae. Right?

    I notice that during the past 1 to 11/2 week, my plants are bouncing back to good health as mentioned before.
    Hope the plants will soon overtake BBA.
    Yeah, when doing EI dosing, any shortage of Co2 would restrict plant growth/take-up rates, thereby creating an imbalance and triggering various types of algae to bloom by using the excess nutrients and lights instead.

    As the tank stabilizes and the plants grow more densely, they use up the nutrients more efficiently and start to better outcompete the algae, hence gradually helping to improve the overall situation over time.

    Though i do find that the introduction of algae from new plants makes a huge difference too, if algae like BBA hitchhike with plants into a tank, it can establish a foothold very quickly... whereas there can be tanks with the exact same parameters and same imbalances, but they never experience any BBA, simply because that algae was never brought into the tank from the start.

    So perhaps you could consider doing anti-algae pre-treatment/quarantine on any new plants in the future, that can help avoid potential algae issues down the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    Just out of curiosity, apart from EI, and ADA liquid fertz, how else can I fertilize the plants? The pros and cons.....please.
    There are all-in-one fertilizers from many other brands like Seachem, Tropica, BorneoWild, Dennerelle etc... though for larger volume tanks like yours, DIY ferts would usually work out cheaper over the long run.

    The other method is to just keep more livestock in the tank and feed them more... their increased waste production will generate additional nutrients, but that is a less predictable method and requires alot more trial and error. Relying on bio-load waste mainly adds more of nitrates and phosphates though, usually not as much of potassium and micro/trace nutrients, so still have to dose those as supplements.
    :: Urban Aquaria ::
    www.urbanaquaria.com

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    Though i do find that the introduction of algae from new plants makes a huge difference too, if algae like BBA hitchhike with plants into a tank, it can establish a foothold very quickly... whereas there can be tanks with the exact same parameters and same imbalances, but they never experience any BBA, simply because that algae was never brought into the tank from the start.

    So perhaps you could consider doing anti-algae pre-treatment/quarantine on any new plants in the future, that can help avoid potential algae issues down the road.
    I remember having BBA on my wood centerpiece when I was cycling the tank.
    The plants gotten from a shop in Yishun may not have given only BBA but also tons of pond snails and damselfly nymph for a good measure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    There are all-in-one fertilizers from many other brands like Seachem, Tropica, BorneoWild, Dennerelle etc... though for larger volume tanks like yours, DIY ferts would usually work out cheaper over the long run.
    Yup, that's what I thought too. Thanks for clearing my doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    The other method is to just keep more livestock in the tank and feed them more.......
    Sounds sweet to my ears........

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    their increased waste production will generate additional nutrients, but that is a less predictable method and requires a lot more trial and error. Relying on bio-load waste mainly adds more of nitrates and phosphates though, usually not as much of potassium and micro/trace nutrients, so still have to dose those as supplements.
    I have seen some tanks using the same technic as you mentioned. Guess it comes with more experience.

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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria;812233DIY
    ferts would usually work out cheaper over the long run.
    Hi UA,
    I'm dosing the liquid form of Potassium Nitrate from Dr.Malik. For a tank to have 20ppm for No3, how much ml of this liquid do I dose for 1 week. Kindly inform. Thanks.









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    Re: How much Potassium Phosphate needed for 4 feet planted tank?

    Quote Originally Posted by Filet-O-Fish View Post
    I was dosing the same quantity of fertilizers (EI) ever since I started the tank but because there was not enough Co2, the struggling plants can use only as much fertz as it could. The rest of the fertz in the water column was unused and was instead used by algae. Right?
    Not necessary. If you happen to read the EI document (refer to attached picture taken from EI document), you will find that excess nutrient does not cause algae bloom. This is the most important statement of Estimate Index which many planted tank hobbyist somehow miss it.

    Algae is a single cell, it take negligible amount of nutrient to grow. How to out compete algae where its requirement is negligible? There is no way to fight algae by limiting nutrient. A nutrient condition where algae cannot grow, mean neither do plant.

    Attached Images Attached Images
    -Robert
    Aquascaping is a marriage between Art and Farming
    My Blog: http://aquatic-art.blogspot.com/

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