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Thread: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bern C View Post
    =D Thanks. I will look into it... I was thinking of using some kind of muddy substrate but too troublesome. What I hate is dero tend to swim around then disturbed.
    Yeah.. I think deros is only good for feeding smaller fish else it isn't worth culturing.
    'S' worms (dero) is definitely worth culturing to avoid the downsides of tubifex.

    The accumulation of fish poo at the tank bottom will in time become the 'muddy substrate' you mentioned. As this poo detritus becomes inert after breaking down, the daily replenishment by fresh fish poo will ensure a continuous nourishment for the deros. Care must be taken not to disturb them too much. But need to try out to see what solution or precautions are needed.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrakid View Post
    'S' worms (dero) is definitely worth culturing to avoid the downsides of tubifex.

    The accumulation of fish poo at the tank bottom will in time become the 'muddy substrate' you mentioned. As this poo detritus becomes inert after breaking down, the daily replenishment by fresh fish poo will ensure a continuous nourishment for the deros. Care must be taken not to disturb them too much. But need to try out to see what solution or precautions are needed.
    Once I was thinking of mixing in some clay with the detritus as I am afraid the detritus alone will be too light but that is a lot of trouble when harvesting. Then I accidentally tried coffee filter paper as I was trying to filter out my deros worm. So I was thinking why not trying to leave the coffee paper in the container and it will maybe serve as food source for the deros to decompose. XD To my surprise it seem to be a good idea.. most deros did cling on the coffee paper.. XD but as time pass the paper turned soft and partially disintegrated which was a mess. So New coffee paper should be added. So maybe can try your method + a layer of coffee paper for them to cling on.

    I find that deros behavior kinda weird... they tend to swim to the surface of the water when disturb when there's no hiding place for them. In my fish tank, I always found them on the corners and slightly above water surface but till contacting the water. XD Then my fish unable to reach them.

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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    If there's problem with the S worms swimming up (fish will eat), then maybe a separate tank above the dero tank may be the solution. Then each day, suck up the fish poo with a small airtube siphon into the dero tank below. That should be practical and convenient too. If I culture deros, that is what I would do.

    As for using the filter paper as substrate, it can be messy after some time, as they will also become soft, adding to the detritrus bulk. Maybe a better way is to add a thin layer of sand to strengthen the detritrus substrate with more body for them to cling on..

    Wonder where I can get a goodly-sized sample of S worms to try it out.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrakid View Post
    If there's problem with the S worms swimming up (fish will eat), then maybe a separate tank above the dero tank may be the solution. Then each day, suck up the fish poo with a small airtube siphon into the dero tank below. That should be practical and convenient too. If I culture deros, that is what I would do.

    As for using the filter paper as substrate, it can be messy after some time, as they will also become soft, adding to the detritrus bulk. Maybe a better way is to add a thin layer of sand to strengthen the detritrus substrate with more body for them to cling on..

    Wonder where I can get a goodly-sized sample of S worms to try it out.
    XD I think letting the fish to have some deros isn't a bad idea. It kinda form a good ecosystem.. Dero will feed on leftover fish food and poop and fish will feed on some dero. I think just a fine net to prevent most of the deros from going through will do.
    That is good idea too to have them separated. Maybe can try replace the fish with snails too.

    Yeah... the paper will need up become detritus and more detritus. @_@ The paper fiber is very light and will be floating around when water got disturbed.
    Yup sand will be an ideal solution and tubifex love them a lot. Actually I got stuck between clay and sand. Since deros habitat is muddy ponds... will clay benefit deros more?? This will be my future experiment, whether clay is worth the effort compare to sand.

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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Snails are as not suitable as fish because fish produce more poo if they are fed more. More fish poo means more bacteria resulting from their rotting. Deros eat bacteria. More bacteria will ensure fast dero growth.

    A bit of very fine sand acting with detritrus build-up has the effect of creating 'muddy' stuff, but not coarse sand.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    I think you meant tubifex worms being filter feeders and eating bacteria.... deroworms/microfex eat food directly so you can just keep them in a separate container or small tank and simply feed them fish or shrimp pellet food (best to feed higher quality the food to gut load them with the good stuff). You do still have to clear out their waste and change the water regularly to keep water conditions at safe levels, otherwise their population growth tends to stall.

    Substrate isn't required for deroworms too, bare-bottom containers/tanks work well. Those types of setups make overall cleaning and harvesting much easier.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrakid View Post
    Snails are as not suitable as fish because fish produce more poo if they are fed more. More fish poo means more bacteria resulting from their rotting. Deros eat bacteria. More bacteria will ensure fast dero growth.

    A bit of very fine sand acting with detritrus build-up has the effect of creating 'muddy' stuff, but not coarse sand.
    Actually snail poop quite a lot too but might not be more than fish. XD I removed my snails from my Daphnia culture due to their poop causing wanted pest population going up, esp good for seed shrimp to hide and multiply. >_< I gotta keep remove the poop every week to keep my culture clean. @_@ Any example of the sand? Very fine sand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    I think you meant tubifex worms being filter feeders and eating bacteria.... deroworms/microfex eat food directly so you can just keep them in a separate container or small tank and simply feed them fish or shrimp pellet food (best to feed higher quality the food to gut load them with the good stuff). You do still have to clear out their waste and change the water regularly to keep water conditions at safe levels, otherwise their population growth tends to stall.

    Substrate isn't required for deroworms too, bare-bottom containers/tanks work well. Those types of setups make overall cleaning and harvesting much easier.
    Heya shifu UA~
    =D Thanks for your pointers. Any idea if substrate like mud or sand do benefit the deros worms? I am thinking of adding compost/potting mix & detritus to clay/sand to make it into a rich substrate for the deros to cling and feed on. XD I know it's troublesome to harvest but I am thinking if it's worth to do so. Like will it create a more stable and/or prolific culture.

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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Wow, it's good that we have shifu UA to guide us. Indeed, S worms don't feed on bacteria but organic food such as algae wafers etc.

    @BernC
    Have you tried co-cultivating your moina and dero in the same tank? I heard it is a good way to do it.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bern C View Post
    Heya shifu UA~
    =D Thanks for your pointers. Any idea if substrate like mud or sand do benefit the deros worms? I am thinking of adding compost/potting mix & detritus to clay/sand to make it into a rich substrate for the deros to cling and feed on. XD I know it's troublesome to harvest but I am thinking if it's worth to do so. Like will it create a more stable and/or prolific culture.
    So far i've tested keeping them in tanks with sand/soil versus bare-bottom, it didn't seem to make a noticeable difference in their population growth. Ample food and clean water conditions make a much larger difference though, these worms multiply according to food availability.

    Its okay to keep the dero worms in various substrates, just that harvesting them becomes much more difficult... which in turn complicates the whole process. Dero worms will swim and crawl toward foods to eat it, unlike tubifex which bury themselves in mud and stick their heads out to filter feed, so substrate isn't really necessary. Dero worms will also crawl along the tank walls to feed too, they are highly mobile worms that can live on all surfaces.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    LIFE IS UNBEARABLE WITHOUT A FISH TANK!!!

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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrakid View Post
    Wow, it's good that we have shifu UA to guide us. Indeed, S worms don't feed on bacteria but organic food such as algae wafers etc.

    @BernC
    Have you tried co-cultivating your moina and dero in the same tank? I heard it is a good way to do it.
    Yup... I did it on my Pulex culture before but it irritates me so I gave up. The problem I face was dero swimming around during harvesting. I tried not to stir the culture too much and cautiously scooping the water but I will end up having some dero in the cup. When filter them through the brine shrimp net, some dero will clings and stuck on the net. It's hard to remove them from the net so usually I will use sieve to harvest dero instead of the super fine brine shrimp net. @_@ I really hate swimming deros... they are all over the tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    So far i've tested keeping them in tanks with sand/soil versus bare-bottom, it didn't seem to make a noticeable difference in their population growth. Ample food and clean water conditions make a much larger difference though, these worms multiply according to food availability.

    Its okay to keep the dero worms in various substrates, just that harvesting them becomes much more difficult... which in turn complicates the whole process. Dero worms will swim and crawl toward foods to eat it, unlike tubifex which bury themselves in mud and stick their heads out to filter feed, so substrate isn't really necessary. Dero worms will also crawl along the tank walls to feed too, they are highly mobile worms that can live on all surfaces.
    XD I don't mind troublesome harvesting. I read somewhere that just a light stir on the substrate will send deros swimming for the surface. What I hate is dero all over the tank when doing WC and it's a daily water change. @_@ The is one of the reason that I gave up culturing deros.
    I am thinking of making a easier to maintain deros culture. So I am thinking if substrate will helps to make a stable culture which leads to lesser WC. For the main feed wise will be fertilizing monthly with compost. Supplement can be added.
    Another alternative will be auto WC system but will use more water. XD

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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bern C View Post
    Yup...

    ... For the main feed wise will be fertilizing monthly with compost. Supplement can be added...
    If like Shifi UA pointed out earlier, that deros don't eat bacteria by filter feeding, then it may not be necessary to add compost as feed. As I understand it, compost is bacteria-based, no? Wouldn't it be enough to feed them with fresh (ie. non-rotting) organic foodstuff?
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bern C View Post
    ... What I hate is dero all over the tank when doing WC and it's a daily water change. @_@ The is one of the reasons that I gave up culturing deros... I am thinking of making a easier to maintain deros culture. So I am thinking if substrate will helps to make a stable culture which leads to lesser WC... Another alternative will be auto WC system but will use more water...
    One way is to do the water change with a fine net always in place. You the siphon and replenish water through this net. The (big) net can be left in place permanently, and the deros may then also cling to the outside of the net as part of their habitat. Must clean the net though, to maintain good water flow capability, though that may pose some inconvenience with deroworms sticking on it.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrakid View Post
    If like Shifi UA pointed out earlier, that deros don't eat bacteria by filter feeding, then it may not be necessary to add compost as feed. As I understand it, compost is bacteria-based, no? Wouldn't it be enough to feed them with fresh (ie. non-rotting) organic foodstuff?
    XD Actually I was thinking of them feeding on the compost just like how earthworm did. The compost will be organic, like what ppl usually use, fruit peels and rotten veggie.

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrakid View Post
    One way is to do the water change with a fine net always in place. You the siphon and replenish water through this net. The (big) net can be left in place permanently, and the deros may then also cling to the outside of the net as part of their habitat. Must clean the net though, to maintain good water flow capability, though that may pose some inconvenience with deroworms sticking on it.
    Yeah... that is what I hate... deroworms sticking on the net... I don't like wasting the life by washing them away. XD

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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bern C View Post
    XD Actually I was thinking of them feeding on the compost just like how earthworm did. The compost will be organic, like what ppl usually use, fruit peels and rotten veggie.
    Lol, those worms are really making us groggy, with so many species with different characteristics. As I understand, earthworms survive by eating not foodscraps per se, but the bacteria in the soil and rotting matter (compost).
    Quote Originally Posted by Bern C View Post
    Yeah... that is what I hate... deroworms sticking on the net... I don't like wasting the life by washing them away. XD
    I mean with a correct mesh netting, the net can be left in place as part of the tank. Thus the dero worms can cling on the net as part of their home. Then water changes and replenishment can be done daily through the net. No need to wash the net normally except occasionally eg. forthnightly to clear any blockage as necessary.

    I think cultivating deroworms is the easiest to do, besides microworms. It is also not as difficult as moina, as it is not easy to crash.
    Last edited by tetrakid; 14th May 2016 at 12:57.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Yeah, you could feed the dero worms vegetable scraps and compost too, they will find edible food amongst all the detritus. Just that there will also be alot of leftover debris which makes harvesting difficult and messy.

    Its much easier and cleaner to be able to simply use a pincette and pluck out a ball of dero worms directly from clean clumps of them, rather than have to dig and stir around to dislodge all the dirt before feeding them to the fishes.

    As for changing their water, i just pour it out into the drain, as the majority of the worms will be gathered in clumps at the bottom of the container. I don't bother to use a net to save those few that are swimming about, just let them get poured out too. I notice at most 10% get poured out, but 90% are still in the container. Their numbers will replenish again the next day anyways.

    I also don't do water changes everyday, unless i'm feeding them alot to quickly boost population growth... most times when i've no immediate need to use them as live food, i'll only feed and change their water once every 3-4 days (sometimes just once a week if i'm overseas, or lazy). Thats sufficient to maintain and grow their population at a slower pace.

    The other method i've used to reduce maintanence is to simply put them into a container with larger volume. I've tried keeping them in a 10 liter plastic container (rather than a 1.5 liter jug) and that helps to reduce maintenance by alot. In this way its possible to sustain the same amount of worms and feed them well, yet only need to do a partial water change once a week, and the water stays clean for a much longer time. Only thing with this method is you'll have to dedicate a tank space just to specifically culture them.
    Last edited by Urban Aquaria; 14th May 2016 at 15:39.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    ... The other method i've used to reduce maintanence is to simply put them into a container with larger volume. I've tried keeping them in a 10 liter plastic container (rather than a 1.5 liter jug) and that helps to reduce maintenance by alot. In this way its possible to sustain the same amount of worms and feed them well, yet only need to do a partial water change once a week, and the water stays clean for a much longer time. Only thing with this method is you'll have to dedicate a tank space just to specifically culture them.
    Yeah! That is the ultimate setup if one has plenty of fish to feed. Thanks to Shifu UA for the tips and pointers. I'll dedicate a 2ft tank for it if and when I do start doing it.

    Presently, I am having problems with my favourite fishes being too choosy with food as they stubbornly refuse all food except dried bloodworms. But then, with dried bloodworms, I am faced with the problem of staleness, which can cause disease. So I reckon the best solution would be live deroworms, as they would be gobbled up without hesitation.
    Last edited by tetrakid; 14th May 2016 at 16:10.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by tetrakid View Post
    Lol, those worms are really making us groggy, with so many species with different characteristics. As I understand, earthworms survive by eating not foodscraps per se, but the bacteria in the soil and rotting matter (compost).
    I mean with a correct mesh netting, the net can be left in place as part of the tank. Thus the dero worms can cling on the net as part of their home. Then water changes and replenishment can be done daily through the net. No need to wash the net normally except occasionally eg. forthnightly to clear any blockage as necessary.

    I think cultivating deroworms is the easiest to do, besides microworms. It is also not as difficult as moina, as it is not easy to crash.
    XD I thought earthworms do feed on the compost too? Cos I remember that is what being taught in the school but... haha.. that was very long along.

    Oh.. I think I got what you mean... like hanging the net permanently on the tank and siphon through it? XD I am thinking of using a fine net mesh too but that is on outflow of the auto WC system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Aquaria View Post
    Yeah, you could feed the dero worms vegetable scraps and compost too, they will find edible food amongst all the detritus. Just that there will also be alot of leftover debris which makes harvesting difficult and messy.

    Its much easier and cleaner to be able to simply use a pincette and pluck out a ball of dero worms directly from clean clumps of them, rather than have to dig and stir around to dislodge all the dirt before feeding them to the fishes.

    As for changing their water, i just pour it out into the drain, as the majority of the worms will be gathered in clumps at the bottom of the container. I don't bother to use a net to save those few that are swimming about, just let them get poured out too. I notice at most 10% get poured out, but 90% are still in the container. Their numbers will replenish again the next day anyways.

    I also don't do water changes everyday, unless i'm feeding them alot to quickly boost population growth... most times when i've no immediate need to use them as live food, i'll only feed and change their water once every 3-4 days (sometimes just once a week if i'm overseas, or lazy). Thats sufficient to maintain and grow their population at a slower pace.

    The other method i've used to reduce maintanence is to simply put them into a container with larger volume. I've tried keeping them in a 10 liter plastic container (rather than a 1.5 liter jug) and that helps to reduce maintenance by alot. In this way its possible to sustain the same amount of worms and feed them well, yet only need to do a partial water change once a week, and the water stays clean for a much longer time. Only thing with this method is you'll have to dedicate a tank space just to specifically culture them.
    ^_^ Many thanks for your analysis. So in short... A simple system will be easier to maintain but productivity wise depends on how well the culture is maintain, ie feeding & WC. An upgrade of the simple system will be larger tank, auto feeding + WC. Filtration will be out of question as deros worm might not like too much flows. Maybe can try natural filtration.
    XD The method I going to try will be eco-culturing but harvesting will be slightly troublesome. Gotta stir and wait a while for the deros to congregate on the surface of the water. Productivity wise... I am not sure unless tested out. With constant food supply and probably adding pots of plants to act as natural filtration. Maintenance wise can't compare to the automated system so the only pros will be... XD it's "organic" & natural system.

    I think this 2 method worth trying out. ^_^

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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bern C View Post
    XD I thought earthworms do feed on the compost too? Cos I remember that is what being taught in the school but... haha...
    Earthworms survive not on organic matter, but on the bacteria in the rotting matter. Since they only attack the bacteria, they will no hue any food that is not rotting. This is something only few composters are aware of, and they keep piling their wormeries with heaps of fresh food scrap and expecting all the the earthworms to come chomping on them immediately. As compost invariably consists of a lot of bacteria, earthworms will enjoy them. As earthworms gobble up bacteria in the ground soil, they at the same time ingest a lot of soil through their gut.
    Last edited by tetrakid; 15th May 2016 at 08:30.
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    Re: Which LFS still selling live daphnia aka boon??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bern C View Post
    ^_^ Many thanks for your analysis. So in short... A simple system will be easier to maintain but productivity wise depends on how well the culture is maintain, ie feeding & WC. An upgrade of the simple system will be larger tank, auto feeding + WC. Filtration will be out of question as deros worm might not like too much flows. Maybe can try natural filtration.

    XD The method I going to try will be eco-culturing but harvesting will be slightly troublesome. Gotta stir and wait a while for the deros to congregate on the surface of the water. Productivity wise... I am not sure unless tested out. With constant food supply and probably adding pots of plants to act as natural filtration. Maintenance wise can't compare to the automated system so the only pros will be... XD it's "organic" & natural system.

    I think this 2 method worth trying out. ^_^
    Yeah, its just a matter of the amount of time and effort that you are willing to invest in culturing and harvesting these live foods.

    Usually the simpler the process the longer you can sustain the interest in keeping them.

    Btw, i did also try adding a small sponge filter (the XinYou brand one with directional spout) attached to the side of the 10 liter culture tank. The air flow was tuned low enough to just create a gentle ripple on the water surface. It helped to further reduce the oily film and smell build up over time, without affecting the worms population growth.
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