Nitrate and Phosphate

[hirowen]

Hi forumers,

Would like to ask, many commercial fertilizer doesnt include nitrate and phosphate cuz they say that it may cause algae bloom. However, many AQ experts said that dosing of nitrate and phospate combine with CO2 helps eliminate algae. I just find it contradic. Can experts here please enlighten me. Thanks in advance!

[|squee|]

Good question hirowen. I want to be clear about this myself.

Nitrate and phosphate are by default stuff that fish-keepers don't like to have in their tanks. I believe commercial products state that so as to ensure a wider range of customers. Anyway, it's just not true. Lack of plant growth is the reason why algae grows imho.

In the Estimative Index, we dose almost everything through the water, and the focus is to get enough nutrients to the plants, so that algae can't grow. We have to dose nitrate and phosphate compounds, unless there are some other compounds that are cheaper and also include nitrogen and phosphourous.

However, many AQ experts said that dosing of nitrate and phospate combine with CO2 helps eliminate algae.

We said that because most of us use the Estimative Index method. And it's not exactly true, that dosing nitrate and phosphate combined with CO2 eliminates algae. We help plants grow, which indirectly prevents algae from growing.

In the end, I don't know if what the commercial people say is just plain untrue, or what they say is true only for their particular fertilisation regime.

[hirowen]

Good question hirowen.

Thank you Thank you!

Lack of plant growth is the reason why algae grows imho.

Then i have a question, Can algae grows even when there is a good plant growth? Can i just say that if there is good plant growth, there will not be algae exist? if so, what is the nutrients that algae absorb? Well, I always heard that BBA is cause by lack of CO2, staghorn is cause by high ammonia, green water is causes by lack of beneficial bacteria colony. But what i dont know is, what do they really absorb? Sorry, i think i begin to let my mind runs wild, haha, but i know that there is something that i still havent get it, so please...help me...

[hirowen]

no people?

[|squee|]

Lol that's really digging deep into the science. I think the only person who can answer you properly is Tom Barr. I hope he'll answer your first post as well, since he's the best in this thing.

[ranmasatome]

Algae absorbs the same nutrients as plants do.. its just that they are able to function more efficiently than plants when one or more parameters are "below standard" for good plant growth. In taht case, when it comes to a competition in a "compromised" setting.. algae will be able to outcompete the plants. IF we are able to keep water parameters optimal for plant growth.. then in that condition.. algae will loose out when it comes to competition between the two. Its not about which algae absorbs what... its more about keeping healthy plants. Algae can still grow when you have healthy plants.. but in very very small and controllable amounts. There is no such thing as an aquarium with ABSOLUTELY no algae.

[hirowen]

Wow! Thanks for ur explaination Ranmasatome! But why do commercial fertilizer do not want to include nitrate and phosphate? Is it because that it is harmful to fishes or it will cause algae bloom or both?

[PeterGwee]

But why do commercial fertilizer do not want to include nitrate and phosphate? Is it because that it is harmful to fishes or it will cause algae bloom or both?

If you notice, the trend is changing. Commercial fertilizers are now starting to include N,P,K or as an individual supplement. Inorganic nutrients that we dose do not induce algae. NH3/NH4 is the main culprit (too much critter loading, uprooting of plants without doing large water changes and etc.) along with poor CO2 (BBA).

In a tank with loads of plant biomass over little algae with good nutrients and CO2, the plants will dominate over time.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[hirowen]

If you notice, the trend is changing. Commercial fertilizers are now starting to include N,P,K or as an individual supplement. Inorganic nutrients that we dose do not induce algae. NH3/NH4 is the main culprit (too much critter loading, uprooting of plants without doing large water changes and etc.) along with poor CO2 (BBA).

In a tank with loads of plant biomass over little algae with good nutrients and CO2, the plants will dominate over time.

Regards
Peter Gwee

Thanks Peter!!

[valice]

peter,

in another thread, u mentioned that we should target 10ppm of seachem nitrogen per dose... how many times per week should we dose? wun a sudden injection of 10ppm of nitrate be too much for the faunas?

for my 2ft tank, and according to FertFriend's calculation, i would have to dose 7ml of seachem nitrogen each time...

correct me if i am wrong... thank you...

[barmby]

Vincent, be careful on that. 10ppm of NO3. You need to have high lighting and good CO2 distribution thru' out the tank.

Plant heavily and Less fish is required.

[valice]

my tank is quite heavily planted... lighting is 36W currently, 55w when my magnum comes back from its repair...
only worried is co2 as it is diy so it flautuates... and quite a load of fauna in it...

maybe i can do a 5ppm twice a week?

[PeterGwee]

my tank is quite heavily planted... lighting is 36W currently, 55w when my magnum comes back from its repair...
only worried is co2 as it is diy so it flautuates... and quite a load of fauna in it...

maybe i can do a 5ppm twice a week?

As you already know, CO2 will be your biggest issue. None of your nutrients are going to do its work if the CO2 is not well taken care of. Having loads of light along with it is going to cause issues (BBA). Read up on the estimative index article by Tom Barr.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[barmby]

co2 as it is diy so it flautuates...

That is the problem

[valice]

Having loads of light along with it is going to cause issues (BBA).

i am having abit of that problem liaoz... so changed a new bottle of diy co2... and hope my 2 SAEs can help to reduce the BBA...

That is the problem

yah... saving up money now to get a co2 cylinder wif solenoid... expensive lar... 200+ bucks for the entire setup...

[Plantbrain]

Algae absorbs the same nutrients as plants do.. its just that they are able to function more efficiently than plants when one or more parameters are "below standard" for good plant growth. In taht case, when it comes to a competition in a "compromised" setting.. algae will be able to outcompete the plants. IF we are able to keep water parameters optimal for plant growth.. then in that condition.. algae will loose out when it comes to competition between the two. Its not about which algae absorbs what... its more about keeping healthy plants. Algae can still grow when you have healthy plants.. but in very very small and controllable amounts. There is no such thing as an aquarium with ABSOLUTELY no algae.

There is no competition because neither algae nor plants are in the same ecological niche, for two species to compete, they need to occupy the same niche to apply pressure on the other(competition).

This does not occur.

Both can exist together and do. But little algae is present where high production of plant growth exist, in general, plants have a much greater demand for nutrients and CO2. Algae have a greater demand for light and NH4.

You are comparing apples and oranges.
It's like saying mice and elephants compete as herbivores.
To some degree but very few.........

Regards,
Tom Barr

[hirowen]

Both can exist together and do. But little algae is present where high production of plant growth exist, in general, plants have a much greater demand for nutrients and CO2. Algae have a greater demand for light and NH4.

Hi Tom Barr! Sorry that never notice ur reply! Thanks btw!

Well, in this case, if my filtration system become matured, NH4 will be converted to nitrate efficiently, plus frequent wc and reduce of lighting, should be able to control too much algae, am i right?

[Plantbrain]

It'll help.

Thing is, you need to focus on the plants, the rest does well then(fish, bacteria, filter etc)

Regards,
Tom Barr

[hirowen]

Thanks!

[StanChung]

i think tom has explain the analogy well.

i notice the older leaves at top of aq. [e uruguayensis and aponogeton longiplomus] always get some fuzz algae at edges but the rest of the tank is fine except for some spot algae here and there.

the mice do get out once awhile in my tanks...