chiller-kicking time-Help!

[zenscape]

Hi all, Happy New Year!

Today is just the first day of working for year 2006 and am now greeted by a roasting sun! Yesterday, i did the unmentionable (to my wife) and decided to get a chiller before the hot season comes. Went to Bioplast intending to get an Arctica or Daeil chiller. Mr Tan recommended a used Daeil 1/5HP as the previous owner went overseas and left his entire stocks and barrels in his shop. It had been used for a year plus. Tested it in front of me and after i listened to it, i bite the bullet and got myself a New Year present! (we always have reasons to spend)

Happily i went home and fixed it up within 3 mins. Turned on the lights and see how long it took to chill the tank to 25 degree

To my horror, it took a whopping 4 hours to chill from 27 degree to 24.7 degree. (yesterday was quite cold) Thereafter, it kicks in at 25.4. I didn't have the time to check the kicking in and out thereafter as it was too late. I guess it was about 45 min before it kicks in again. This morning before i went to work, with all the lights off, it seems to stay longer at 25 degree.

My tank is 90 gallon or about 300litre with 8 x 36 watt PLs. I am wondering whether Daeil 1/5HP is not powerful enough?

Is there something to do with the flowrate?? I fixed the inlet of chiller from the outlet of eheim 2028 filter. I am into planted tank and set the flowrate low. Should i get a separate pump? if so, what is the recommendation? How is the inlet and outlet to be placed (no sump tank) Or does anyone spot something wrong somewhere, like topping up of gas, etc. According to Bioplast, he had serviced it before selling. Any i can do to let it chills faster to 25 degree when the lights are turned on? if it takes too long, i guess the PUB bill will be high and the chiller will wear out in no time.


Thanks

[solonavi]

Based on this calculator to size a chiller, http://www.jbjlighting.com/prod_chiller_size.asp, 1/5hp seems to be fine. Maybe u want to get a higher flowrate delicate pump for your chiller.

Just my 2 cts
JC

[zenscape]

Based on this calculator to size a chiller, http://www.jbjlighting.com/prod_chiller_size.asp, 1/5hp seems to be fine. Maybe u want to get a higher flowrate delicate pump for your chiller.

Just my 2 cts
JC

Thanks JC for your advice

I have not dealt with pump before, could you enlighten me how is the layout like?? is the pump place in the tank and how do i deal with the outlet if i do no want it to be too high a flow into the tank??

BTW, JC, saw your blog, beautiful cabinet (very amano!). Hope to see more once you are done with the set up. Just curious, is your chiller running without problem in your cabinet??

[solonavi]

Easiest is to get a external pump and run it separately from ur cannister. The pump output to the chiller and the Chiller output to ur main tank.

Just a suggestion.
JC

[vinz]

I'm using a 1/2 hp Daeil on my 600 litre tank. It kicks in every hour plus to 2 hours and runs up to about 20mins (give or take 5 mins).

Your running time is not typical for a Daeil or Artica. Make sure you have the inlets and outlets connected correctly. Ie. filter outlet to chiller inlet, chiller outlet to tank, etc. Check the water flow entering the tank.

Also change the temperature to about 27 celcius. Frankly, your plants and fishes do not need 25 celcius. Note also, as the temperature gets lower, the harder and hence the longer it takes to chill. I don't have the hard numbers, but as an example, if it takes 15 mins to drop 2 celcius, it might take 4 times as long to drop 4 celcius. To save on your costs, set at 27 celsius... that is sufficient to keep the plants and fishes healthy.

Also, it is important where you place the chiller. If you put it in an enclosed space like a cabinet, the chiller has to work harder. Basically, the chiller draws in air to do some of the cooling. Cool air goes in one end, warm air comes out the other. If the warm air is not allowed to dissapate, then it gets drawn in again, it will not be as efficient as cool air. If your chiller is in a cabinet or un-ventilated area, try to move it out to a ventilated open space temporary to see if the results are better (at the risk of your wive's wrath ). The 1/5 hp should be quite quiet.

Where do you place your chiller?

[loupgarou]

To my horror, it took a whopping 4 hours to chill from 27 degree to 24.7 degree. (yesterday was quite cold) Thereafter, it kicks in at 25.4. I didn't have the time to check the kicking in and out thereafter as it was too late. I guess it was about 45 min before it kicks in again. This morning before i went to work, with all the lights off, it seems to stay longer at 25 degree.

----

it should kick in as soon as the ambient temperature raises the tank temperature by 1 degree (or close to it). meaning to say, how often the chiller kicks in depends on how fast the external temperature of the room is raising the temperature of the tank.

How long it operates on the other hand depends on the chilling capacity (as well as ambient temp), so make sure you got adequate ventilation to remove the heat extracted from the water.

[vinz]

Oh, yah, check the website solonavi provided for the recommended flowrate of the 1/5 hp chiller. Try to match the higher end of the range (because the chiller and other equipment inline will reduce flowrate). No point adding a dedicated pump if you can already match the flowrate... additional pump = additional electrical usage.

[zenscape]

I'm using a 1/2 hp Daeil on my 600 litre tank. It kicks in every hour plus to 2 hours and runs up to about 20mins (give or take 5 mins).

Your running time is not typical for a Daeil or Artica. Make sure you have the inlets and outlets connected correctly. Ie. filter outlet to chiller inlet, chiller outlet to tank, etc. Check the water flow entering the tank.

Also change the temperature to about 27 celcius. Frankly, your plants and fishes do not need 25 celcius. Note also, as the temperature gets lower, the harder and hence the longer it takes to chill. I don't have the hard numbers, but as an example, if it takes 15 mins to drop 2 celcius, it might take 4 times as long to drop 4 celcius. To save on your costs, set at 27 celsius... that is sufficient to keep the plants and fishes healthy.

Also, it is important where you place the chiller. If you put it in an enclosed space like a cabinet, the chiller has to work harder. Basically, the chiller draws in air to do some of the cooling. Cool air goes in one end, warm air comes out the other. If the warm air is not allowed to dissapate, then it gets drawn in again, it will not be as efficient as cool air. If your chiller is in a cabinet or un-ventilated area, try to move it out to a ventilated open space temporary to see if the results are better (at the risk of your wive's wrath ). The 1/5 hp should be quite quiet.

Where do you place your chiller?

Hi vinz and chris, thanks for the advice

The chiller is outside and just beside the cabinet. Maybe i should give more allowance between the chiller and the wall, to provide wider gap for ventilation. I will also take ur advice to shift the chiller to the other side of the cabinet which i think is more openly ventilated.

I spent just about a couple of minutes to fix the tubes into the chiller. I remember i took out the filter outlet and fixed it to chiller inlet and chiller outlet (an additional tube) to the tank. To play safe, i will check it again tonite..

As regards temp at 25 degree, i intend to keep moss and i heard that moss do well at this temp. Maybe i should set at 26 degree.

[zenscape]

Oh, yah, check the website solonavi provided for the recommended flowrate of the 1/5 hp chiller. Try to match the higher end of the range (because the chiller and other equipment inline will reduce flowrate). No point adding a dedicated pump if you can already match the flowrate... additional pump = additional electrical usage.

I begin to think that there is something to do with the inadequate flow rate.

I checked the Arctica webpage (assuming Daeil is applicable), they said:-

DBA-150 model - flow rate - 480 GPH (gallon per hour??)

further page states:-

Flow rate in GPM (gallon per minute?)- min./max- 8/22 (or 480/1320 GPH)

According to Ehiem webpage:-

For 2028- flow output (US GPH)- 277 GPH

Question:-
Does it mean for ehiem filter, even if we max out the lever all the way to the north, the max flow rate does not match the min flow rate of DBA-150??

Since i have started planted tank, I am quite worried about keeping high flow rate in planted tank as it will create a mess in the tank. Also, i heard that high flow rate in planted tank may not be ideal. I stand to be corrected.

On the other hand, I agree that i may be a chore to have additional pump.

[vinz]

Moss do not need really low temps. At higher temps, they do just as well, but will require a tad bit more fertiliser. If your tank is already getting a good dose of ferts, you can go to about 27 and still have good moss growth.

[vinz]

Yeap, looks like your filter does not provide enough flowrate. At the minimum you should match the minimum flow rate. Look at the price for a new pump and a new filter. It may be worthwhile to buy a new filter instead of the pump and put your old one aside for spare or re-sell as second hand. Some LFS might be willing to give discount if you don't take the media that comes with some new filters. Or even allow you to trade-in the old filter (you take the old media and let him sell the new media with your old filter).

Strong flow rate can be handled by distributing the output. A single strong output can cause havoc, but a distributed output can give the tank the much needed even circulation. Several methods:
1. split to 2 outlets, placed at opposite end of the tank.
2. one spraybar (as long as the length of the tank), located across the back of the tank, near the bottom, pointing towards front of tank.

I prefer the last one as it optimises CO2 availibility to the plants (provided you are dissolving CO2 into the filtered water).

[vinz]

I just checked Eheim specs... 2028 has pump output of 277 GPH, but only 198GPH for filter output. Filter output is the expected flowrate when media is loaded in the filter.

[zenscape]

Yeap, looks like your filter does not provide enough flowrate. At the minimum you should match the minimum flow rate. Look at the price for a new pump and a new filter. It may be worthwhile to buy a new filter instead of the pump and put your old one aside for spare or re-sell as second hand. Some LFS might be willing to give discount if you don't take the media that comes with some new filters. Or even allow you to trade-in the old filter (you take the old media and let him sell the new media with your old filter).

Strong flow rate can be handled by distributing the output. A single strong output can cause havoc, but a distributed output can give the tank the much needed even circulation. Several methods:
1. split to 2 outlets, placed at opposite end of the tank.
2. one spraybar (as long as the length of the tank), located across the back of the tank, near the bottom, pointing towards front of tank.

I prefer the last one as it optimises CO2 availibility to the plants (provided you are dissolving CO2 into the filtered water).

Thanks vinz, i will try the spraybar method and see whether it works.

[HorizonVentures]

To my horror, it took a whopping 4 hours to chill from 27 degree to 24.7 degree. (yesterday was quite cold) Thereafter, it kicks in at 25.4. I didn't have the time to check the kicking in and out thereafter as it was too late. I guess it was about 45 min before it kicks in again. This morning before i went to work, with all the lights off, it seems to stay longer at 25 degree.

Thanks

HI,

I am running on the same chiller as you. I think what you exprienced is just for the 1st time when you run your chiller. It needs to run loner to cool down your Whole tank temp to 24.7. I had that issue also. Now that the temp in the tank is at 24.7 - 25, the chiller shd not be kicking in so often.

Mine is runs every other 1 1/2 hrs for abt 45mins.(cos i set 2deg difference)

Hope my exprience helps.

[zenscape]

HI,

I am running on the same chiller as you. I think what you exprienced is just for the 1st time when you run your chiller. It needs to run loner to cool down your Whole tank temp to 24.7. I had that issue also. Now that the temp in the tank is at 24.7 - 25, the chiller shd not be kicking in so often.

Mine is runs every other 1 1/2 hrs for abt 45mins.(cos i set 2deg difference)

Hope my exprience helps.

Yes orgas! you are right. I guess i was too panic when i first started the chiller. Now is not so bad, but is still not as short as yours in terms of chilling 2 degree in 45mins.

I now set the temp to 25.5 and it will lower to 25.1 and kick in at 25.9. It takes about an hour to chill from 25.9 to 25.1 with the lights on.

However, i still think the chilling period may be shorter. Some experts suggested i use an external pump instead of relying on canister filter to drive the chiller. I will be looking for a pump this weekend. But i think it is messy to have so many pipes in the tank in addition to the inlet and outlet of canister filter

Anyone using Daeil who could help to tell us whats their chilling timing??

BTW, orgas, how do you set the temp difference?

[HorizonVentures]

BTW, orgas, how do you set the temp difference?

I set the chiller at 28Deg. It will kick in when the temp is at 29. Off when it's at 27.something.

[neon]

Yes orgas! you are right. I guess i was too panic when i first started the chiller. Now is not so bad, but is still not as short as yours in terms of chilling 2 degree in 45mins.

I now set the temp to 25.5 and it will lower to 25.1 and kick in at 25.9. It takes about an hour to chill from 25.9 to 25.1 with the lights on.

However, i still think the chilling period may be shorter. Some experts suggested i use an external pump instead of relying on canister filter to drive the chiller. I will be looking for a pump this weekend. But i think it is messy to have so many pipes in the tank in addition to the inlet and outlet of canister filter

Anyone using Daeil who could help to tell us whats their chilling timing??

BTW, orgas, how do you set the temp difference?

I am using a 1 HP Hailea chiller for my 6x2x2 with 300w MH. I have swapped the thermostat with Fox brand and temperature sensing from the tank directly. I set to 25 and also set kick in time 10mins after reaching 1 deg change. Temperature will drop ~0.1 deg / min, or around 12 mins for 1 deg cooling. Considering the big tank and high heat from the MH, it is very powerful. With the Fox thermostat, I can easily control the kick in and further reduce the frequency.

[zenscape]

I am using a 1 HP Hailea chiller for my 6x2x2 with 300w MH. I have swapped the thermostat with Fox brand and temperature sensing from the tank directly. I set to 25 and also set kick in time 10mins after reaching 1 deg change. Temperature will drop ~0.1 deg / min, or around 12 mins for 1 deg cooling. Considering the big tank and high heat from the MH, it is very powerful. With the Fox thermostat, I can easily control the kick in and further reduce the frequency.

Neon, do you use an external pump or canister filter to drive the chiller? It appears that my canister filter is underpower to provide enough flow rate... If not, the problem lies in my chiller

Now looking for accessories to fix up the external pump to chiller and tank. Anyone has good lobang which LFS provides a wide variety of accessories such as Hose bend, T-joint, rain bar, etc??.

Thanks

[solonavi]

If u staying in North-East area, try petmart at Serangoon north.

Cheers
JC

[CKM]

I used to have chiller kick in often problem also. I've installed a external thermostat recommended by neon for my cl450. Using it for my 4 footer now. Chiller kick in timing is from 1 - 1.1/2 due to cold weather nowadays. Setting the temp at 24 degress.