Please help me beat the algea!

[LonBeMe]

Well, here goes - my first try at a forum. Looks like there is a tremndous amount of knowledge here. I hope some rubs off on me.


Tank Dimensions (LxWxH, specify units): 24"x14"x20" - 26 gal "bow"

Lighting Intensity(No of Watts) : 55
Number and type of Lighting (FL/PL/MH) : compact floresent
Age of light bulbs : 2 months
No. of hours your lights are on : 12

CO2 Injection Rate (bps) : just started to use excel every other day - 1/2 cap
Type of CO2 (DIY/Cylinder) :
Method of Injection (e.g. Diffusor/Reactor) :

Liquid fertilisers Used (Product name. E.g. Seachem Flourish) : have KENT Pro Plant and Freswater Plant but afraid to use yet
Fertilization regime (Frequency and amount per dose) :

Other fertilisers (Product name. E.g. Root Monster) :

Other additives (Product name. E.g. Seachem Prime) :

Type of Filter (overhead/internal/canister, Product name/model if possible) : Penguin BioWheel
When was the filter last washed : have not (new 3 months)
Filter media used : cartrige Fiber/carbon?
When was the media last changed : 2-3 weeks
What was changed :cartige

Age of setup (i.e. since initial setup or last major re-do ) : 3 months

Water change frequency : weekly
Amount changed : ~20%

Water surface movement (None/gentle/turbulent) : gentle (just from filter)
Circulation (None/gentle/turbulent) : gentle

Tank Temperature : 79 f

Chemical Properties (Fill what you can)
-------------------------------------
KH (dKH): 180
GH (dGH): ~ 50
pH : 7.8
NH4 (ppm):
NO2 (ppm):0
NO3 (ppm): ~10
PO4 (ppm):
Fe (ppm):
- not sure if one of these is Amonia - .025
Bioload (Number and type of fish and plants)
Fish:
2 Dwarf Gourami
2 Zebra Danio
3 Serpe Tetra
7 Neion tetra
1 Sword tail
4 Marble Hatchet
2 Cory cats
3 Dwarf Bristlenose
Plants: Not so sure of the names
Java Moss & Java Fern attached to driftwood
2 large swords
3 small swords - I think - 2 have 8" shoots w/ smaller leaves every 2-3"
1 bunch (or what's left) red Hygro
1 bunch (also, or what's left ) Red Ludwigia

------------------------------------------

Describe your problem :
Algea:
"carpet?" algea on large swords
some Hair (green) also on large swords
general green fuz on heater, filter, etc as well as on red plants
brown fuz on Java moss

Other:
Red plants keep dieing. Mush at the bottom (then float)

The LFS told me that the CO2 was missing so I got the excel. I also added the algea eating bristlenoses. They are chowing down but no way will they make a dent.

I look forward to any and all feed back - I really like having a planted tank and want to keep it up.
Thanks!
----------------------

[zenscape]

LonBeMe, welcome to AquaticQuotient.com

Check your KH and GH again. It can't be that high!

Do a blackout. It appears to be BGA as you indicated "carpet" algae.

If you intend to do a low maintenance tank without Co2, try to reduce the intensity of the light and the number of hours of lighting, add more fast growing plants covering 80% of your tank ground surface area and at the same time, reduce the bioload.

There are many discussions on low maintenance tank and you may want to do a search here to find out more.

[LonBeMe]

Thanks for the reply

I checked again (with better lighting to compare colors):
KH - between 120 and 180
GH - between 25 and 75

Does "Low maintenance" just mean no Co2? I'm ok with maintenance, but thought I'd get away with out a Co2 tank and use the excell.

I invested in the CFL light because I was told the plants need that.
How long would the black out have to be? Will that kill the algea and then it falls off?

I have seen well planted tanks that had LOTS of fish. I was hoping not to get rid of any.

If I cover the ground surface (I have no substrate) with 80 plants, how is the best way to clean ...and how ofte?

So many questions I know.
THanks again!

[valice]

You definitely have substrate... Else you can't plant your Echinodorus... Substrate is anything that is at the bottom of your tank... Even simple gravel or sand is a substrate...

Anyway, possible to take a picture of your algae problem? It could be anything from BGA to fuzz algae or hair algae based your description... But I will go with hair and fuzz algae given your hairy description...

With your 2ft tank, 55W is abit high as you do not have alot of plant mass, therefore, your bioload is providing excess nitrate and ammonia which cannot be taken by your plants quickly enough...

With the dosing of Excel, fertilisation must start as well... Not sure what is the makeup of Kent fertilizer. But if nitrate, phosphate and potassium (NPK in short) are not present, you might want to get them... Seachem has them or the new Tropica line of fertilisers...

But anyway, plant more right from the start. You can remove all your two bunches of dying plants since they are not helping but only screwing up your water condition by adding more ammonia due to its demise... Snip away leaves of your Echi which are affect by the algae. Do a good wash of your heater and glass... A 70% water change and start planting...

Get lotsa cheap plants from your LFS for a start.
Hope that helps abit...

[zenscape]

Oh yes. i read again your algae description and it might be fuzz, Black bush algae or hair algae forming a "carpet". It may not neccessary be BGA. Blackout is effective to get rid BGA and may not have any effect on BBA and hair algae.

Sorry to confuse you with the term "low maintenance". Low maintenance tanks normally contain plants that are not too fast growing so that we can skip having to trim and change water every week. As the rate of growth of the plants is pretty slow, fertilisation and lighting intensity may be very much reduced. Co2 may or may not be injected. You can have co2 enriched tank with low light and slow growing plant or no co2 at all.

A very detailed and helpful explanation of this concept about the relationship among Co2, algae, fertilisation and light can be found in an article written by Tom Barr:-

Originally Posted by Tom Barr
Non CO2 methods

While much of the attention and aquascape seen on the web focuses on CO2 enrichment in their methods, Diana Walstad presents an excellent argument for the approach of a non CO2 enriched planted Aquarium. We should also extend this to include Excel and carbon enrichment liquids as well as acetate which allow some algae to exist without any light or CO2 and grow heterotrophically (like us). She discusses not needing test kits, water changes, pruning often, dosing, work that most aquarist do not care for.

What? You mean no water changes? Yes, that's right.
No testing? Yes, that's right, but you can if you wish.
Not much pruning? Yes, that's right, the plants grow much slower.
No dosing? Generally yes for many easy to care for plant species(I'll discuss this much more later), the fish waste represents the dosing and you feeding them daily adds the nutrients.

So why don't more folks do it?
I'm not sure, given the goals they say they want when setting up a planted tank.

CO2 is a bit like a drug addiction that hobbyists get hooked on. That's fine, but this non CO2 approach will give an excuse to have another tank that needs less attention and is cheap.

I suggest folks coming from either the non CO2 or the CO2 enrichment approaches to give the other method a try and see what benefits it has.

CO2 and non CO2 tanks work for all the same reasons, but........
They grow at different rates.

Based off of my testing, I'd estimate close to 5 to 10 times slower than a CO2 enriched tank at 2-3 w/gal.

This rate of growth is such that the fish waste alone is enough to supply the needs for the plants. If we added more light then the CO2 would start becoming a more limiting factor and allow algae to grow better (algae need higher light to grow well in non CO2 enriched systems whereas the plants are much more limited without CO2). A lower light level is required; generally about 1.5 to 2w/gal is good.

We also need a balanced fish load and feeding routine since this is our main long term input of plant nutrients. Fish food varies in it's amount and ratio of nutrients. This is not an issue unless it becomes limiting. Very often since non CO2 tanks get neglected, they have trouble growing certain plants. If these nutrients are not allowed to bottom out(Say PO4 or NO3), then many of the species folks suggest cannot be kept, suddenly can be kept in non CO2 tanks but they simply grow slower.

Rather than suggesting allelopathy, Fe algae limitation of PO4 limitation, I will say none of this exist. Rather, non limiting nutrient levels for plants will provide better conditions.

CO2 will limit both plants and algae, the lower light and high plant biomass density will provide a better place for the plants and a worse place for the algae. CO2 and non CO2 tanks work well and are algae free namely due to high plant biomass that is relatively healthy. This plant biomass removes NH4 from the fish waste.

We can add KNO3 and KH2PO4 and show that in a non CO2 tank, excess PO4, NO3 (and Fe) do not cause algae blooms. We can add NH4 and induce a bloom just like a CO2 enriched tank.

This assumption and knowledge frees us from limitation of nutrients which ultimately does more harm to the plants' health and well being, allowing a better environment for algae to grow.

Doing water changes adds CO2 back to a CO2 limited tank.
Plants and algae both can and do adapt to low CO2 environments and induce genes to make enzymes that concentrate CO2 around Rubisco, the CO2 fixing enzyme. When we add the CO2 at higher levels back, this causes the plants and algae to destroy the low CO2 enzymes and start growing without of them since they no longer need them to fix CO2 form the KH ( the -HCO3).
Why keep all this machinery around if you no longer need it? Doing weekly water changes "fools" the plants and helps encourage algae more. Algae are faster to respond to low CO2 than plants.
Once the plants do adapt, they can do well.

Soil substrates are popular with non CO2 users and they work well but peter out after about 6-12 months. They help the plants get established initially and supply nutrients that are other wise lacking in the beginning before many fish are added and the tank has had a chance to accumulate waste.

I suggest onyx sand as it added Ca, Mg, and Fe, and I add mulm/detritus freshly from another established tank to add bacteria and cycle the tank immediately. I also add a form of organic material other than soil. The bacteria that break the waste down need a source of carbon as an electron donor besides the elements in the waste. Like us, they need their carbs as well. As these bacteria break the carbon and waste down, they consume O2.
This lowers the redox values in the substrate freeing up Fe2+ and other nutrients.

Add too much organic matter and O2 and you get O2 levels that are too low and cause issues for your tank. Soil also has NH4, this we know to cause algae in higher amounts and it does not take much! Ways around this: don;t use soil, it's messy and has NH4/urea. Boiling the soil for a few minutes will oxidize the NH4 to NO3. Allowing damp soil to be spread thinly outside for few weeks(3) will allow the NH4 to be converted into NO3 by bacteria.
Peat moss, ground peat, works well also.

The other options are add lots of mulm instead and leonardite.
Leonardite is great, it last a very long time, adds a slow release form of carbon, matches the gravel's color, sinks easily poses no issues if you disturb and uproot plants.

You should always add fresh mulm to any new tank. Add some form of carbon as well, pre soaked/boiled soil, pre soaked peat, leonardite.

Dosing:
Since the plants are the same as they are in a CO2 enriched tank and we know the rates of uptake are there, we can scale down the rates for the non CO2 dosing routine.

I removed all fish and critters from the test tanks, I dosed only with KNO3m, and other inorganic fertilizer so that I would see only plant uptake and inorganic ferts contributions to the plant's health.

Going back and assuming 80-90% of the nutrients will come from the fish load, I added once a week KNO3/KH2PO4.

While trace mixes can be added, I decided to use SeaChem Equilibrium instead.
It has Fe and Mn as well as Ca/K/Mg/SO4.
I will add about 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gal tank once every week or two.
This greatly enhances the growth of the plants.
I also will add about 1/8" and 1/32" teaspoon of KNO3 and KH2PO4 respectively once a week or two.

The plants will respond very well to this routine. You can let the tank go for awhile and not dose to purge any excesses that might have built up over a month or two or you can test to see rather than do the water change.

DW does not suggest dosing, but adding 2-3 things once a week or two, certainly is not that tough???? the plants do gain a lot and then you can grow most any plant in a non CO2 tank.

From here if you want more growth, Excel is a good option. You can add about 2-3x as much ferts then.

Smaller hang on the back filters work well.
One thing many folks setting up any planted tank seems tom over look, plant densely from the very start, do not wait for the plants to grow in!
Add some cheaper plants till the main display plants grow it and slowly remove the "starter plants" as needed.
Set up the substrate well, this is the main part of the non CO2 tank.
Feed the fish well. Add algae eaters, they will work many times more efficiently since the algae grow slower under non CO2 conditions also!

1" per gallon is a good rule of green thumb for fish stocking levels.
These tanks often look better on any given day than the CO2 enriched tanks.

The lower light and lack of gadgets and maintenance make these tanks much more efficient and cheaper for folks. If you leave for a week, the tank does fine as is. No worry.

Maintenance routines:

Dose once a week(optional)
Add evaporation top off water
Snip tops off plants that get too unruly.
Feed fish daily.
As dirt and growth get further out of hand, you can uproot and do a big hack and rearranging, do not do this more than once every 3-6 months. Do a water change right afterwards.
You may have to remove some algae manually every so often but the algae grows slow also.

That's it.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[mordrake]

Thanks for the reply

I checked again (with better lighting to compare colors):
KH - between 120 and 180
GH - between 25 and 75

Does "Low maintenance" just mean no Co2? I'm ok with maintenance, but thought I'd get away with out a Co2 tank and use the excell.

I invested in the CFL light because I was told the plants need that.
How long would the black out have to be? Will that kill the algea and then it falls off?

I have seen well planted tanks that had LOTS of fish. I was hoping not to get rid of any.

If I cover the ground surface (I have no substrate) with 80 plants, how is the best way to clean ...and how ofte?

So many questions I know.
THanks again!

your KH reading should be in ppm.
in degrees, 120ppm will be ard 6.7
not sure about GH though

[|squee|]

Number of problems I've spotted:

1) Too many fish.
2) Is the Biowheel a hang-on filter? It sounds like it's too small for your tank.
3) Too few plants probably.

What I'd do:

1) Reduce the number of fish, like down to 20 or less. It's my personal preference though.
2) Do a good clean up of everything, remove the algae as best as you can, wash the mechanical media.
3) Get a ton of new plants like stemmed plants and get them in on the same day.
4) Don't be afraid to use the fertilisers. Your plants need to outcompete the algae, and to do that they need those nutrients. Read up on nutrient dosing... there are alot of myths around.
5) Excel helps but it's not really CO2. You need the gas... try investing in a cylinder setup if you are planning to be in planted tanks for a long time.

Read up the stickies in the Beginner's Corner too. I did not have much algae problems in my 1st ever setup, which was because I literally packed plants in.

[LonBeMe]

I've attached some photos.
If I want lots of fish, lots of plants, lots of light (for lots of hours).... And don't mind maintenance, is the CO2 the difference??

[celticfish]

ppm conversion is about 17.9 ppm per degree for both.

[|squee|]

If I want lots of fish, lots of plants, lots of light (for lots of hours).... And don't mind maintenance, is the CO2 the difference??

I don't understand quite what you mean

CO2 is the key if you want to have growth.

P.S. There's a limit to lots of hours... 10 hours is the norm, 12 hours the max usually.

[LonBeMe]

squee

what I meant was if I added the Co2 would all the other stuff be ok?

Here is where I'm at now:

With what I know so far and can commit to in time and $$, heres my plan (feel fre to suggest changes)
- Pull out the dieing stem plants - I think I planted them wrong - left in bunch
- pull out or trim swords with heavy algea
- clean glass, filter, heater, etc well
- do ~40% water change using water before our water softener
- buy LOTS of plants
- use the Flourish excel as directed
- use Kent Pro Plant (Sodium Nitrate, Mag Sulfate, Boric Acid) as directed
- Kent Freshwater Plant (Muriate of Potash, Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Sodium, Copper (each say EDTA?),cobalt chloride, sodium molybdate
(these 3 were bought at a very good LFS (The Fish Place NT, NY) - I do have faith in them too
- Remove my bio wheel - depletes Co2
- dont put new filter cartrige (so carbon that deplets Co2 wont be as present)
- use my light 10 hrs a day

So - do you think this can work?