CO2 and large tanks with sumps

[hii]

Maybe is the side effect after doing too much aquarium planting ... forgot to eat, forgot to gym too .. but dont forget AQ can already.

After reading till Amano Giant tank, there is a section take about CO2 inject and oxygen and ... no algae thing than I confuse .... due to my poor english and after reading too long..

Anyone here can explain what does it mean and how it work. thks!

[Nicky]

It seemed to say that ADA uses the overflow to ensure there are plenty of O2 for the filtration process.
With this I believe they tried to imply that O2 is an important element for filter process and is actually good to avoid algae problem.
Then before the water gets pumped from the filter back to the tank (through the UV etc) the CO2 is injected directly into the pipe leading into the tank.

This somewhat change the paradigm some of us have, that using fully enclosed cannister is the way for planted aquaria.

[hii]

hmm I think maybe next time can try using sump tank for planted tank...and follow the method ADA used.

I've thinking of using sump tank for planted .. anyone try before?

I remember I saw a photo of ADA gallery from a HK guy, one of the big tank using sump filtering system i guess.

[PeterGwee]

It seemed to say that ADA uses the overflow to ensure there are plenty of O2 for the filtration process.
With this I believe they tried to imply that O2 is an important element for filter process and is actually good to avoid algae problem.
Then before the water gets pumped from the filter back to the tank (through the UV etc) the CO2 is injected directly into the pipe leading into the tank.

This somewhat change the paradigm some of us have, that using fully enclosed cannister is the way for planted aquaria.

You save CO2 by having an enclosed system but then again, you can always add some surface movement to add some O2 in from the atmosphere to prevent a depletion. Now, what does plants add during the photoperiod? Several airpumps running non-stop will not even match the amount of O2 pump in by plants.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[Nicky]

With CO2, O2 is given by plants during the photo period.. but if you read the catalogue you will see that what I have expressed here is what ADA expresses in the book. Just quoting from what I read.. unless I am understanding the message wrongly. Take a look Peter if you have the catalogue. Tell us how you feel / your experience.

[PeterGwee]

The sump does not help to raise DO above 100% which plants can but then again, it helps to maintain decent DO levels due to its constant water to air contact of the overflow area. Folks doing planted tanks often keep the surface so still as to remove CO2 loss but that can have issues if the plants are not doing well (not adding enough O2) and critters/bacteria start to remove the O2 at night (no O2 added at night from plants). (Can drop to dangerously low levels...possible gasping issues.).

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

My observation/findings from two "old bird" - Tan (Bioplast) and an engineering contractor who had done planted with fantastic 6' tank for over 15 years :
a) they don't use solenoid , that means their CO2 is pump in 24 x 7.
b) Tan adopts high water circulation, whereas the other guy uses 2 x 2028
c) Tan WC frequently (~2-3 times/week) , likewise for the other guy WC about 10% daily.
d) both dose very conservatively, not sure what Tan is really using, the other guy doses according to denerle routine.

In my case, I am running a canister with 3400L/h with chiller. CO2 mist using powerhead (Tom Barr's design) with canister return water to push the CO2 mist , and CO2 is running for 24x7. Another water return at the back. Another powerhead with rainbar stretch from left to right and the other end is open. . So far no fish gasping for air. Despite of this setup, BBA still come . Don't tell me that circulation is no good or CO2 is not enough. I observed I feed blood worm, the BBA will come very fast ! May be due to ammonia spike .

[PeterGwee]

Its always hard to convince folks when things don't go their way. Perharps a last straw to see if that is really your issue. Take a sample of your tank water say 500ml of it and let it stand for 24-48hrs. Measure the pH of that sample. Target a drop of 1.0 pH value to hit about 30ppm. How close are you to that value? After the water change, how fast does it get the CO2 back up to the good range?

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

Its always hard to convince folks when things don't go their way. Perharps a last straw to see if that is really your issue. Take a sample of your tank water say 500ml of it and let it stand for 24-48hrs. Measure the pH of that sample. Target a drop of 1.0 pH value to hit about 30ppm. How close are you to that value? After the water change, how fast does it get the CO2 back up to the good range?

Regards
Peter Gwee

Just measured after light out. Stopped all pumps,powerhead,co2 injection for 10mins. Collected ~500ml.

a) Right now, dKH 5.5 (using AP KH test kit 11 drops on 10ml water), PH 5.7 (collected at two different spots). As mentioned CO2 PPM is very high .
(b) wait til tomorrow evening on the sample.

[stephen chung]

hmm I think maybe next time can try using sump tank for planted tank...and follow the method ADA used.

I've thinking of using sump tank for planted .. anyone try before?

I remember I saw a photo of ADA gallery from a HK guy, one of the big tank using sump filtering system i guess.

I m trying to use a sump tank system for my new 5ft. But some says is ok n some says is bad. So, I really donno what to do now n my 5ft tank is still empty.

[Nicky]

If I were you I will go for it, for simple reason.. people who told you not to have a sump are concern with CO2 lost. True, there will be CO2 lost with sump. However how much is CO2? Max $20+ for a 3.3kg (about 5 litres), min <$10 for the same amount. CO2 is about the cheapest thing we can buy in this hobby. So make up the lost with plenty of CO2 injection before the water gets back to the tank and/or have a ADA Pollen Beetle or other brand diffuser in the tank lah.

If Amano believes in overflow (to a sump obviously) in his big tank, I don't see why you cannot go with his idea.
After all, with all the talks, theories and discussion we need to see result right?
The result of ADA theory is sitting right inside your catalogue.
See it and be convinced.

Looks like we soon have another project running..

[hii]

I think nicky got the point, must try than can see the result. I will consider setting up a 4ft fern tank running sump in my new home.

If the sump tank result really poor than I still can change back to use canister hehe

[neon]

Just measured after light out. Stopped all pumps,powerhead,co2 injection for 10mins. Collected ~500ml.

a) Right now, dKH 5.5 (using AP KH test kit 11 drops on 10ml water), PH 5.7 (collected at two different spots). As mentioned CO2 PPM is very high .
(b) wait til tomorrow evening on the sample.

After 23 hrs later on the collected sample, the PH reading is 6.8-6.9. Now, I believe the CO2 should be good from the reading before and after. So, what could be the problem ?

[PeterGwee]

After 23 hrs later on the collected sample, the PH reading is 6.8-6.9. Now, I believe the CO2 should be good from the reading before and after. So, what could be the problem ?

Can you bring the pH down to 5.8 within an hour or less and keep it there the entire day?

Regards
Peter Gwee

[Nicky]

I think nicky got the point, must try than can see the result. I will consider setting up a 4ft fern tank running sump in my new home.

If the sump tank result really poor than I still can change back to use canister hehe

In case anyone wonder, System Control (Ah Tan) also use the overflow concept in his self-made big cannister filter. I know it because I have seen the inside before. He made the filter for another of his close friend and that guy, too, achieve an unbelievable clear and healthy 5ft planted aquaria.

[neon]

Can you bring the pH down to 5.8 within an hour or less and keep it there the entire day?

Regards
Peter Gwee

Peter,

No sure the point you raised here to bring it down to 5.8 within an hour. If the 5.7- 5.8 can be sustained in the whole course , isn't that more important ?

[PeterGwee]

Peter,

No sure the point you raised here to bring it down to 5.8 within an hour. If the 5.7- 5.8 can be sustained in the whole course , isn't that more important ?

Sure but if you do large water changes say 80% and etc and the CO2 drops back to around ambient levels, you'll need the CO2 system to respond fast enough to drop it down to the target range or else you would have a deficiency issue. I play with CO2 24/7 before and the rate needs to be slower in order not to overdose at night when there is no plant uptake. (Do a large water change and go figure if the rate of CO2 for 24/7 is able to bring down the CO2 to the range fast enough?).

You can do it your way and figure things out but BBA is a CO2 issue. Keep it stable at high or low levels and not bop it up and down or in the middle.

Note: If you are doing 24/7 now, try measuring towards the mid-day and end of the day to see if it drops below 20ppm. When you do large water changes, how fast does the CO2 return to optimal level?

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

Sure but if you do large water changes say 80% and etc and the CO2 drops back to around ambient levels, you'll need the CO2 system to respond fast enough to drop it down to the target range or else you would have a deficiency issue. I play with CO2 24/7 before and the rate needs to be slower in order no to overdose at night when there is no plant uptake. (Do a large water change and go figure if the rate of CO2 for 24/7 is able to bring down the CO2 to the range fast enough?).

You can do it your way and figure things out but BBA is a CO2 issue. Keep it stable at high or low levels and not bop it up and down or in the middle.

Note: If you are doing 24/7 now, try measuring towards the mid-day and end of the day to see if it drops below 20ppm. When you do large water changes, how fast does the CO2 return to optimal level?

Regards
Peter Gwee

Peter,

Just measured (8 hrs away since lighting started) the PH 6.0-6.1 at all different area (after stopping all pump,and CO2 for 5mins). As previously discussed, the PH relate to KH to yield CO2 result is not accurate, as DW and other stuff would distort the figure. If calculates base on the Co2 calculator, it would be 165 ppm. My fishes are still happily swimming !!

I agreed if large WC the Co2 ppm surely would drop a great deal and it would take a while for the CO2 to catch up. Normally I do the WC in the Sat morning around 8:15am, and Co2 pump in around 9:00am. Lighting period start from 1pm to 11pm.

I can measure PH before WC and see how long the Co2 ppm can catch up after WC .

[PeterGwee]

Now, do you see the issue? The pH has rose to 6.0-6.1 instead of being kept at 5.8-5.9?

Regards
Peter Gwee

[neon]

Now, do you see the issue? The pH has rose to 6.0-6.1 instead of being kept at 5.8-5.9?

Regards
Peter Gwee

I know, but the CO2 PPM is still high , isn't it , after 8 hrs ?