The 'Aftermath'

[michael lai]

Hi Guys,
A couple of months back, I experimented with Seachem Excel on BBA and the results. Did another experiment recently and found out my tank has become a graveyard for shrimps! Nothing seems to survive anymore, and I mean shrimps. It seems there's a residue substance remaining from the overdose of Seachem( assumption here )excel. The shrimps just die after one day in the tank. I have done a couple of 50% water changes and used activated carbon for a period of 1 week, all to no avail. Wonder if you guys have any similar experience, maybe can share here.

[CK Yeo]

Yes. Excel is not a cure-all. BBA die, shrimp die, invertebrate (in general) die (there are worms in my substrate. eeks), Vallisneria and other soft leaf plants melt, fish breath faster... etc
It is supposed to break down to CO2 and water. So theoratically there should be no long term side-effects.

Use at your own risk.

ck

[michael lai]

Another suspicion is that the residue is stuck at the moss area( again assumption ) because most of the shrimps goes to the big moss ball I have in the tank.

[dc88]

My guess is that too much Excel actually promote too high level of bacteria bloom, similiar to adding sugar into water, not entirely the same but similiar, which will deplete the oxygen level in the water because as you add more food for the bacteria they will consume more oxygen to digest the food. Shrimp will be the first to be affected due to low O2.
Bacteria bloom will then follow by rapid die-off of the bacteria colony as the nutrient and oxygen depleted. The debris is just the remaining of the bacteria colony and shrimps will like to feast on them.

[michael lai]

Interesting theory DC, I'm still experimenting here, 1 shrimp or 3 shrimps at 1 go. So far, Yamato, malayan and Cherries didn't make it. Hmm.......would really love to get to the bottom of this one.

[benlim7171]

Hi, I also encountered the same problem previously using the same method. All my yamatos died overnight. Replenished yamatos also died the next day. Had to change water for 3 consecutive days at 50%. Fishes also stressed out and the water becomes cloudy for 1 week. Now, I am very careful to add other things to my tank. Thanks for sharing.

[michael lai]

HI Ben,
Did you put any shrimps inside there now? Did any survive?
Guys, this is only an assumption here with Seachem Excel, only an observation so don't go shooting all over the place that Seachem sucks! but we'll try to get to the bottom of this.

[bclee]

Anyway, Seachem Excel is not meant to be used in this way...

There is a warning on the label (if I don't remember wrongly) not to overdose.

BC

[celticfish]

michael,
after reading your initial post.
i bombed my tank with excel (3 times over three days).
cleared the BBA and GS.
water looked a little off (cloudy?).
but returned to normal after three weeks of 50% water change.
a couple of shrimp casualties during first week (2 or 3 out of 20).
so far so good the shrimps are okay.

[michael lai]

Hmm...I know for a fact that 80ml for a 3 footer is catastrophic Something is killing those shrimies! Guess I'll have to water change for a couple of weeks more to see and more frequently too.

[Quixotic]

Actually, dosage is 1 capful (5ml) for 200L daily or alternate days. Expect casualties if overdosing.

Should return to normal after water changing, I only did once. Perhaps, too many water changes are stressing the shrimps?

Not sure if this article from Seachem provides some information.
http://www.seachem.com/support/Artic...dAquarium.html

[dc88]

Don't blame Seachem. You should not overdose. Follow the instruction on the bottle will be just fine. Excel is a miracle product ! Never before you can add carbon like this.

[michael lai]

Thanks for the link, quixotic. I won't argue with the PHD with that article neither on the apparent benefits of Excel. Just trying to establish whether there is any lingering 'presence' or altogether another matter as to the shrimies's death. It would probably take another 2-3 weeks before this mystery is resolved, will keep you guys posted but please feel free to contribute anything to this observation.

[PeterGwee]

The only causes that can potentially kill shrimps are high CO2, low O2, NH3/NH4 and NO2. Since you did multiple large water changes, the excel effect should have gone off. The only possible explanation is that your bacteria count drop substantially and that small spikes in NH3/NH4 did them in. (The other possible thing is low O2...do you have some good surface movement?). All in all, you have poor plant growth to start with. If you use CO2 gas, learn to use it well.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[michael lai]

Agreed Pete but I have since achieved good plant growth after the incident. Trying to isolate and identify the 'murder' weapon here It could be a single cause or a couple or worse, me! Hahaha....

[PeterGwee]

Try aerating the tank at night and see if you still get shrimp deaths. If it stops, you don't have enough plant production (O2) and surface movement. Its fine to lose some CO2 due to surface movement but it will save fish/critters if the O2 gets low at night.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[michael lai]

Okie toke, will add that into the list as well. The thing I don't like about aerating is my water level is high and the bubbles bursting will leave water droplets on the perspex of my lights. Guess you can't win everytime.

[CK Yeo]

If it was NH3/4 we ca detect the spike on test kits. If CO2, the pH will drop. Measuring these parameters will be a more direct way of determining if these are the side effects of overdosing excel which killed the shrimp. Aeration may speed up the breakdown of whatever chemical (if it was chemical) that is killing the shrimps, so it will not be conclusive evidence that it is CO2 or low O2.

If you had super plant growth, super O2 production, does it mean that nothing can die in your tank if you choose to add chemicals against its usage instructions?

Anyway, Michael it has been reported many times by various people that shrimp die when overdose excel. You are not the first, you won't be the last.

ck

[michael lai]

Agreed CK, the crux of the mystery here is not the shrimies demise, neither the misuse of Excel but whether if there is a lingering presence aftermath. Just trying to clear this so for the benefit of future hobbyists. There will always be various schools of thoughts on how to deal with algae. Sometimes people like me just like to have a quick fix, whether it works or not is another matter altogether. Because if you never tried it you'll never know, I belong in this school.
Before I go on and on, blah, blah, blah...don't want to bore you guys, your contributions are important so keep them coming.

PS: I'll keep the aeration to the last part as I totally agree that might throw us off course on nailing the murder weapon.

[michael lai]

Hi guys,
The verdict is out, the culprit is PH. Unfortunately, it took another 105 shrimps to come to the answer. My tank's PH was 6, while the shrimp's water was 7. Introduction to tank was done rather hastily and thus.......the difference of 1 in PH was the shrimies lasted less then 4 hours before turning upside down. so now you have it.