lighting query for low tech tank

[nospace]

Hi,

been lurking in this forum, reading here and there...

i'm running a 1.5x1x1 ft low tech tank that houses 11 pearl scale goldfish and 1 orangey-red guppy/swordtail (can't tell) that looks like it went through WW1,2,3,4,5 and 6... to explain the wierd combo, these were all given up by previous owners... so in a wierd way, i'm running a shelter of sorts... anyway, i digress...

the tank has been running for close to a month and is fully cycled (i assume this because they're all STILL floating in the right manner). i've always wanted to cut my teeth on planted tanks and aquascaping in a low tech way... so i did some research on the destructive nature of goldfish and decided to go for java fern, windelov i think, (which i got without knowing what it was) and a dwarf anubia (if i can eventually find/recognise one)

i want the tank to be open topped (i can't close it anyway because the overhead filter is humongous... and i also don't have a top)... i have no lights...

so i was thinking of using those Flourescent desktop lamps with the g-clamps and boom arms and springs and all that, and having the tubes suspended over the tank...

the problem is in the tubes.. i don't know what specs i should be looking at (HO,VHO,K,Spectrum) hence this post... also, i've no idea what PL is... so i need clarification/advice in this aspect...

my assumption is that a tank of my depth (1 ft) would probably do fine with just 1 or 2 flourescent tubes...

Strictly low tech... no CO2, Metal halides, Dosings, posi-neutron quantum fluctuator type of stuff... i just wanna throw things in there and watch them.. urm, not die...

seriously, i just want to get the plant basics down first before i do anything of a grander (but still low tech) scale...

Thanks in advance!

[ankank]

i'm running a 1.5x1x1 ft low tech tank that houses 11 pearl scale goldfish

You have got to be kidding. Personally, as fond as I am with aquaristics in a very small scale, I wouldn't introduce one gold fish into a tank this size -- let alone eleven. I assume you do have a rough idea of the size gold fish can and will reach.



Gold fish are often depicted and illustrated as the "default fish" in small tanks. They are not. Not by a long stretch. You should seriously consider finding a new home for them.

(As far as your original question is concerned, I can't help you much even tho I know a great deal about fluorescent lighting. Interestingly, when it comes to lighting, the sales and tech terms are completely different here in Germany.)

[Cacatuoides]

For a tank of your size, a simple clip-on 9w or 11w PL light is sufficient to sustain the ferns you just mentioned.....seriously, you should follow ankank's suggestion to get a bigger home for your goldfish as they'll grow big enough before you realise it

[|squee|]

Hi,

ankank is right, your bioload is too high. But if you still want to, you can try having plants.

Let me answer your questions directly:

Java fern windelov and dwarf anubias (petite) can be easily searched for in Google Images.

Please refer here for what PL lighting is.

For that kind of light setup, you are most likely looking at 18W or 11W, PL tube, white in colour (not orange or yellow). So far, I've yet to find that kind of tube sold in hardware shops. I could only find that kind of white tube in this light set:
.
So maybe you'd want to get a similar setup. They are easily found in LFSes specialising in planted tanks.

[ankank]

so i was thinking of using those Flourescent desktop lamps (...) the problem is in the tubes.. i don't know what specs i should be looking at

Okay, just to get this out of the way: Freshwater lighting is not a science. Quite the opposite: basically any light source will do, whether it is a fluorescent lamp, an energy-saving lamp, a halogen or a simple household bulb. Yet most common light sources are suboptimal compared to fluorescent lighting. FL tubes (or variations thereof, G-socket tubes or energy-saving bulbs) are by far the most efficient and long-lived lighting sources today. That's why they are the usual choice.

Your desktop lamp idea should work fine, I've seen people do it and given the circumstances would do it myself. Just keep in mind you are dealing with potentially lethal electricity and desktop lamps aren't usually constructed with a very humid environment and splash water in mind.

The finer points of lighting, namely color temperatures, are not relevant to plants. They can deal with most available lighting color. It might matter to you, the observer, tho: Most household tubes are constructed with a cozy, warm feeling in mind and will put a yellowish tint on your tank. Given the choice you should get tubes created for workspace (they are usually "harder", white-ish in color). But this is where my advice ends as I am not familiar with your trade terms as far as three-banded FL tube colors go.

[nospace]

Thank you all for responding... you guys have given me a good idea on what to look out for... i'll be careful about the appliance's exposure to water... the lights will probably be suspended about 4 to 6 inches above water level... since it's an open top tank, i though i might want to indulge in some floating plants like hornwort or a hyacinth even... hence my concern on having enough lighting over head...

when i got the tank (i've two of them by the way.. on a double decked stand of sorts..) my orginal intention was to have a planted tank with a low bioload... but those goldfish were about to be used as arowana treats by a friend and i didn't quite like the idea of culling for convenience (or for any reason actually) hence me taking them in... believe me when i say that i wasn't expecting 11 of them...

anyhow, i could split them up and relocate half the number into another tank... but i wouldn't have alot of plants to play around with... so it'll just be another copycat tank with identical fauna... namely, java ferns, anubias, aponogetons or god forbid, a gargantuan hygro... at my level, i don't want to go for crypts yet... the lack of fauna variety is what bugs me the most... otherwise i don't really have any other issues...

kind of a shame actually, i was hoping to use my second tank for shrimp...

my difficulty in locating the Dwarf anubias lies in dealing with shop assistants at my LFS that have no idea on what i'm talking about... Mention anubias and i get a blank stare followed by an inquiry on what it looks like... which i have a hard time explaining, then giving up and buying a Windelov instead... so that was a lesson for me... if i want to end up buying a windelov, ask for an anubia...

as for water colouration and clarity... lol... i'm running low tech... it'll be silly to expect pristine clarity... besides, i'm pretty satisfied with the clarity and i like some tint in the water... looks more natural imo...

Edit: i just had a thought... in the event that the gold fish gets too big, i could always relocate them in my dad's outdoor freshwater pond... but i wonder how they would fair against the 2 ft long koi and tilapia (some kind local fish... related to the carp family i think)

[bryan]

Don't worry. Crypts are pretty easy.And there is a wide viariety. I started off with crypts as a newbie too. I have a tankful of them in a 2 X 1 x 1. I use a 18 W flourescent tube and they are fine. But of course they'd get owned by goldfish.

The common LFS name for Anubias is 'Nana'.

[ankank]

in the event that the gold fish gets too big

They will.

Again: I am not one of the many people who calculate "1 cm fish for 1 liter water" (a very popular rule of thumb over here). I am really okay with high bioload. I wouldn't keep Guppy fish in my tank which is similar to yours in size if I weren't.

But, and I cannot stress this enough, keeping one or even multiple goldfish in a tank of this size really is cruelty. Go visit your LFS, let them show you what size a halfway grown goldfish reaches, maybe they even have a full grown one. And let him explain how much litter a goldfish makes (goldfish aren't amongst the cleanliest of all fish). And then give them all away and get a fish whose size fits your tank.

Again: I mean no harm, I don't want to tease you. Get informed. Then make an informed decision.

[wasabi8888]

Also, goldfishes esp large ones can also devour your plants... mine ate up the nanas in my tank and it's not even the dwarf nana that i am talking about...

[murinus]

mixing goldfishes and plants is a very bad idea. the goldfish will eat or uproot all the plants and make a mess

[nospace]

Hi everyone,

sorry have not posted for a very long time... anyway here's an update (for those interested)

Lights
I went to Ikea to look for one of those desktop lamps with extendable arms and a clamp base... i was in luck, the people there told me that they were expecting stock for a new model in 2 weeks... long story short, i got myself one and fitted it with an 11w PL light... The lamp is pretty cool, plus the electical portions including the socket for the PL tube is covered so no chance of electrocution...

Plants
Well for starters, the windelov i got is still alive... although it's recovering from being starved from light... with the lights, i start to see new shoots and increased growth from an almost wilting state... with the lights, also came some brown looking algae... it looks absolutely terrible and it started to coat itself on some parts of the older leaves on the windelov... however, i noticed that while everywhere else was coated with the mucky brown stuff, the surrounding area around the windelov is algae free... so instead of resorting to algae-cides... i bought more plants

as usual, buying plants are always a big joke... i went out looking for hornwort and came back only to find out it was fanwort... i also bought what i hope is an Anubias Nana... it looks like one... i just hope it doesn't explode into a 4 foot tall arrowhead or something...

I also went out to a pond near by home and picked out a small bunch of frogbits... they're now floating and being anchored by a fishing line in my tank... the Goldfish seem to like it alot... they're constantly molesting the frogbits...

so, i'll wait out on the whole thing and see if any algae growth is eradicated, if not retarded.. i'll probably go buy a couple of otos if there are still some small signs of the algae... the damn things look so cute (i meant the otos, not the algae)... my LFS sells them for 3 buck per fish, imo that's crazy...

[edit: just realised that otos cannot survive the water conditions in a goldfish tank ]

[|squee|]

Great job, is the light white then? Care to provide a picture? (I'm interested too )

For greater plant selection, you need to patronise one of the frequently mentioned shops on this forum, like Nature Aquarium, Colourful Aquarium, Eco-Culture, Far East Aquatics etc.

[nospace]

lol... by special request... here are the pics...

[disclaimer: i am known for having a very bad sense of design and aethetics...]


This is my tank. The goldfish have been exhibiting schooling behaviour... and they're terrified of my girlfriend's monkey soft-toy Super low-tech... no CO2, no ferts other than goldfish poo-poo... decoration was inspired by the contents of the canal near my home... and yeah, i know the gravel is all wrong... i accidently broke the bag it was in and i have no other place to put these things...


This is the lamp i got at Ikea. Practical enough to be used for other lighting purposes rather than being used as a fake sun... The PL i got is slightly yellowish... couldn't find any white PLs... but doesn't matter i guess, makes for good ambient lighting...


This is the much talked about windelov i mentioned earlier in the thread. If you think it looks bad now, you should've seen it before... it's bouncing back from a near death experience...


Another one of my infamous cock-ups... i went out getting this thinking it was hornwort... turns out it's actually fanwort... ah well, it looks nice... lets see if it will end up on the goldfish's salad bar..


For once i think i got it right... it looks like a nana... i just hope it's the dwarf species and doesn't explode into a plant of raintree size proportions...


Picked this up from a pond near my home... these things can grow up BIG... the leaves can grow up to a diameter of 10 to 12"... but the flowers are really pretty... Some quack website told me that the frogbit would survive the goldies... in some ways they were right, the thing seems to be putting out more leaves than the goldies can munch off... and yeah they really do eat this plant... it's become like their lounge area of sorts...


The bottom view of the frogbit... the roots are very tough... i've read that they will anchor onto anything... wanted to try getting it on driftwood, but i don't fancy have the leaf stems grow all the way to the surface to put out leaves... so i just left it floating, anchored by a fishing line so it doesn't float all over the shop...

[nospace]

Another update... i shifted 3 of the goldies to my dad's pond... it's been a week and they're co-existing with the 1 koi and 2 tilapia in there... i'll probably relocate more of the goldies to the pond...

Anyway, my diatom problem is around... they're coating the leaves of my nana and my windelov.. previously they would grow on the gravel and plants... but after the introduction of fanwort and the nana, they've abandoned the gravel and migrated to the windelov and the glass panes...

Sigh... so any recommendations for algae eaters? prefably those small in size... i would love to put in otos, but i don't want to kill them...

[|squee|]

Well I suppose you have to make do with the algae unless you want to take your goldfish out and set up another tank just for them.

Diatoms aren't much of a problem, they are usually present in tanks like yours that haven't been around for at least a month or more.

My heavily planted 2ft that has been running for close to half a year has no diatom problem, but other green algae can come knocking on my door very easily.

[nospace]

well, now in addition to the diatom problem, i now have green algae as well... it's getting alittle out of hand... on the flipside however, the plants are doing quite well...

the fanwort is growing at an insane speed and the nana is already putting out new leaf shoots, not counting the new leaf it just finished putting out... this is happening with the diatom covering the nana leaves...

i've reduced the bioload to 4 goldfish... the other 6 goldfish are growing like mad in the pond...

[edit: I couldn't take the look of the algae anymore... so i went out and bought 4 otos... brought them back and used the drip method acclimatise them for 5 hrs... introduced them to the tank and about 1 hr later, i found one of the otos in mouth of one of the goldies... argh!! the goldie was obviously panicking because the oto wedged itself in its mouth.. i had half a mind to leave the goldfish in that state for the night just to teach him a lesson...

anyway, took the goldfish out and tried to extract the oto which was still alive by the way... sad to say, the oto didn't survive the extraction because i accidently broke its spine while trying to pull it out of the mouth... the fins punched through the mouth of the goldie and i had to clip off the fins... end of the operation, the goldie was a little traumatised with mouth piercings, but he'll survive... if he doesn't, well i'll say that it's retribution and that he probably deserves it...

another of my otos looks lethargic, so i picked up him out and put it in to another tank...

man, otos in that tank is a very bad idea... i'll see how the remaining 2 fare... if things look bad, then i guess i'll have to start my 2nd tank alot sooner than expected...]

[Quixotic]

if he doesn't, well i'll say that it's retribution and that he probably deserves it...

If you wish to leave it on it's natural course, that is fine, but to say it is retribution doesn't sound quite right to me.

It is the tank owner's responsibility to find out about the compatibilities of the fishes before introducing them into the tank. It is by no means the fault of the goldfish if you introduced something that is eatable by them.

A mishap perhaps, but definitely no retribution.