Is substrate an absolute requirement?

[qsaark]

Due to a tight budget, I started my planted aquarium without a clay based substrate. I used fine gravel (2-3 mm) mixed with some coarse one. Planted the tank with Java Fern (on driftwood), hair grass, an pearl grass on the front whereas ludwigia repens and Rotala rotundifolia in the side. I am supplementing the plants with fertilizer regularly and keep an eye on the water chemistry which looks OK. Tank is also provided with CO2. Yet, the plants are not looking very healthy. Especially my java ferns are getting brown though not at alarming rate. What am I missing here? Is it the substrate? or the tank needs some time. It is almost 3 weeks since it was started.

[valice]

Your setup sounds good.
No issue on the lack of a base fertiliser since you are supplementing liquid fertilisers.

The browning might be due to the adaption of the plant from emersed to submersed form, depending on the state you bought the plants.

PS: Substrate is anything that is used as the base material, so you fine gravel is also considered as a substrate.

[Fei Miao]

Looking at the thread title, I thought it's a a tank without any substrate at all,ie not even gravel..

... just for interests, I believe one can scape a tank without any substrate... java, bolbitis tied on wood, with moss or riccia tied on wire mesh/flat stones...

[StanChung]

Hi there Qsaark,

May I know the temperature of your tank?
Most cases of browning I notice is high temp >28C, lack of flow, lack of CO2...
It would be helpful if you could post a pic.

[valice]

Stan, he's tank picture.




From: http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=27082

[Shadow]

you might want to add room monster stick or other slow releasing fert around your hairgrass.

[StanChung]

Is that Micranthemum umbrosum in the foreground? If it is, it's a NO3 loving plant. Without NO3 it will die!

That plant should be planted 2 stems into the substrate. However your gravel is coarse and planting it properly would be difficult at best. I suspect it's a lighting issue as it starting to yellow from the bottom. So what's your lighting like?
The finer gravel i can see looks like carbonate sand. Have you tested this with the acid test to see if it bubbles?

The fern looks like the leaves were left to dry before planting. Just trim the dying leaves.

Sorry to question everything, but it's always a process of elimination.

[qsaark]

Is that Micranthemum umbrosum in the foreground? If it is, it's a NO3 loving plant. Without NO3 it will die!

That plant should be planted 2 stems into the substrate. However your gravel is coarse and planting it properly would be difficult at best. I suspect it's a lighting issue as it starting to yellow from the bottom. So what's your lighting like?
The finer gravel i can see looks like carbonate sand. Have you tested this with the acid test to see if it bubbles?

The fern looks like the leaves were left to dry before planting. Just trim the dying leaves.

Sorry to question everything, but it's always a process of elimination.

Yes, it is Micranthemum umbrosum or as bought it as pearlgrass. Your analysis is correct. The plant is indeed yellow from the bottom. I am using two 12W fluorescent bulbs, so together I have 2.4W/gallon light. I have not tested the gravel with acid, but tonight I'll test and let you know. For ferns, you are again right. The plants were shipped 'dry' in plastic bags. They were not really dry but moist.

My ludwigia repens and Rotala rotundifolia are also loosing leaves like crazy. Initially I had just stucked them in the gravel without removing the foam and lead. Most of the stems got rottened. Then I seperated the rest and planted them in the gravel (as bunch) without foam and lead. Although they are still loosing old leaves, but new are coming. One strange thing is the old leaves were round to oval but the new lealves are more elongated.

[qsaark]

Hi there Qsaark,

May I know the temperature of your tank?
Most cases of browning I notice is high temp >28C, lack of flow, lack of CO2...
It would be helpful if you could post a pic.

My tank is maintianed at 75-76oF. Boy here in US, they are still sticking to old system. I guess around 22-24oC. By checking the pH (~6. and KH (~120), I guess tank has good CO2 saturation.

[StanChung]

Hi Qsaark,

Pretty sure inadequate lighting is the problem. You have 24W of light. So your tank is 10G.

This IMHO is not enough to grow light green plants like Rotala rotundifolia and umbrosum. Red stem plants will turn green. The bottom parts melting is one of the signs. Ludwigia repens is a high light loving plant and grows very fast.

I think there's a minimum that needs to be met.
[2.4wpg on a small tank is misleading, wpg is flawed on the smaller and larger tanks. IMHO median for fairly accurate guide are tanks around 48-125G]

Note: The more oblong leaves is just the rotala changing from it's emersed form.

Hope this helps.

[Shadow]

so what is the rule of tumb for small thank <48G?

[qsaark]

Hi Qsaark,
Pretty sure inadequate lighting is the problem.
.

I was cautious with light because plenty of light will 'burn' my java fern. So what you suggest in this case? how much light should I give to this combination of plants?

One more thing. I am using Hagen Freshwater Plant Gro (Iron Enriched, NPK) Fertilizer (http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_...r.asp?CartId=). Though they recommend to test the water for Iron deficiency, just how often should I give this fertilizer? Can I combine this fertilizer with Fluorish Excel?

[Shadow]

Florish excel is a CO2 replacement, I don't think you need excel if you already have presurise CO2. Unless you want to kill some BBA, one of the excel side effect

[StanChung]

Hi Qsaark, Shadow,

I know that with 18W of light on a 6G nano[30x25x30cm] is not enough to make glosso crawl.
36W is just enough.

So I estimate you would need about 48-60W.
48W if you intend to stay on the moderate side. 60W would be better for the red plants. The Rotala rotundifolia will dip in high lighting.

FWIW, I think bright light burning ferns statement needs to be explained.
Most of us don't have that much light to create such a situation. I have bolbitis, java ferns under a 150W mH and they are growing fine, no burns.

Some of my general thoughts on Ferns.
The ferns you buy from farms are mostly grown emersed.
They will undergo minor changes as they adapt to new water parameters.
Ferns only look great after all of their leaves have grown in your tank conditions and all the leaves you planted it with have been removed.
For it to look great, you need to keep the fella there static for long periods for them to fill in their space nicely. [minor adjustments are ok but changing the lighting intensity or retying on driftwood means it will again take months to fill up the space and grow nicely.
Trimming it regularly of old/damaged leaves ensures the new growth will have space to expand.


I've used both Hagen Freshwater Plant Gro (Iron Enriched, NPK) Fertilizer before with moderately good results. No complaints. Economical as well for a branded fert. You'd be ok with this with what you're planting. Some root inserts will be good backup if your water dosing is insufficient. We're dosing ppm's of nutrients. [Put in perspective is really very very little!] You should eye your plants to check for deficiency to help you get an idea of what needs to be dosed. This may help


Flourish Excel is polycycloglutaracetal-carbon replacement as explained by Shadow. Something to put in as a CO2 substitute.
Kills BBA as a side effect and some plants like vallis. [listed on Seachem's webbie]
It has a distinct smell. Some other manufacturers put this in their fert products.

HTH.

[qsaark]

Hi, I wish to thank everybody on this forum who came forward to help me. I am glad to report that my plants are doing very fine after increasing the light and CO2. They are pearling and I can see streams of very fine bubbles ascending towards the surface. The link (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm) sent by StanChung was also of great help and I learnt that my plants were indeed missing several nutrients. After repeatidly dosing them with the fertilizer, plant came back quickly.

[StanChung]

Great that your tank is doing well. Do update us on the progress.

[newman]

very informative indeed...
at 1st i also tot small tank doesn't need powerful lighting...
thank u for the links

[qsaark]

Great that your tank is doing well. Do update us on the progress.

OK, pearling happened for about two days but for past 48 hours, I dont see any pearling. Only few bubbles underneath the leaves (java fern). Nothing is changed, the light is 2 flourescent bulbs of 26W each hanging ~8" above the tank. CO2 injection is as it was before. Any suggestion?

[|squee|]

Your plants experienced a growth surge, and now that they have gotten used to the conditions their growth rate stabilises.

However, double check that everything is working as it should. Doesn't hurt.

[StanChung]

Could be the demand for nutrients has increased. Raise your dosing a little to see what happens. Seems like something is limiting to me.