Crossing Apistogramma macmasteri and Apistogramma vijeita

[iwishweallcouldwin]

just asking, since A.vjieta and A.macmasteri are so common and possibly from the same family, is it advisable to cross breed the two? will it work?

[valice]

Then you get a hybrid in the process.
Currently, the scientific classification puts them as two different species altogether. It might work still.

But what's your rationale for doing it?

[iwishweallcouldwin]

was just thinking because for bettas, if you cross breed, fancy monsters (mixed, random colouration on the same fish) will be the result. although not many people will appreciate fancy monsters, there're always a few which end up being champion pieces. hence, i was just wondering, can apistos cross breed? if they succeed in doing so, will the mixture of different genes have any effect on their colouration, finnage, body shape, and most importantly, their hardiness? all these are purely out of curiousity as i am really new to apistos. besides, i'm really amazed at how similar vjietas and macmasteris are.

[chuencp39]

Cause they are from the same families..At some HK and taiwan forum, there are some keeper already crossbread macmasteri with vjieta....

[iwishweallcouldwin]

haha so what are their fries called? don't think i'm adventurous or experienced enough to try that.. but i'm just curious as to what the results are... like is the quality of the fries good?

[chuencp39]

me also not very sure what they call....but i think their quality wont be stable for F1

[benny]

If they are of 2 different species and have cross bred, then technically, they still belong in the same genus Apistogramma. However, they would be marked as a HYBRID as they are not a naturally occuring species. For example, Datz, the German publication, would label the common Steel Blue as Apistogramma "Steel Blue", without the "sp." designation as it's probably not valid as a species. Steel Blue is believe to be an Asian hybrid of Apistogramma caetei and Apistogramma sp. "Wangenflecken". Perhaps Hwchoy can check with the scientists can give us a better idea of how a hybrid will be label during a scientific discussion.

However, for aquarium strains of a specific species, it's considered a variant and can be marked accordingly. For example. Apistogramma cacatuoides var. 'Orange Flash', Poecilia reticulata var. 'Medusa', or Betta splendens var. 'Copper'. But most hobbyists won't really borther with trying to name their fishes correctly in the begining, not to mention aquarium strains.

Unlike hobbyists keeping show bettas or guppies, most dwarf cichlid collectors seems to pride themselves in keeping the genetics in it's wild/natural form as pure and as clean as possible. Who knows, maybe in the future, there could even be show apistos!! But I honestly doubt that could be a reality as I can't imagine a veil tail variant or a copper variant when the naturally occuring coloration and fin structure are already so amazing.

Anyway, I've split this out as a separate discussion thread.

Cheers,

[iwishweallcouldwin]

Haha yes benny I get what you mean and i completely agree with you... Honestly, I really don't think there's a need to creat 'show apistos' because unlike wild bettas or even guppies, their colouration is already so fantastic! but what I'm concerned about is, will a hybrid be inherently tougher or more hardy than pure species apistos, ie will the quality of the fries improve? chuencp said that some breeders have already cross bred vijetas and macmasteris, do their fries actually end up being more hardy than their parents, or weaker?

[blueblue]

just asking, since A.vjieta and A.macmasteri are so common and possibly from the same family, is it advisable to cross breed the two? will it work?

The viejita in the market is actually a hybrid from viejita, macmasteri and another guy (could not remember the name now). Mxiing v and m is not a problem at all

[chuencp39]

that's why i''m curious that is it my passed away macmasteri male a pure macmasteri? I checked the book and found out that macmasteri usually dont have such strong color....it look like those not so good quality viejita

[hwchoy]

those fancy betta (assuming you mean those half moon, crowns and so on) are actually not hybrids but line bred strains of one species Betta splendens. However, in the long history of domesticating the siamese fighting fish, there is a possibility that genes from closely related species were mixed in such as Betta imbellis.

[iwishweallcouldwin]

in that case, how can one then be certain that the viejitas and macmasteris in the market are pure strains and not hybrids? please advice. thanks.

[Quixotic]

What is the definition of pure?

If you are referring to the original wild form, then those that are "double red", "triple red", "orange flash" and what have you, are not "pure".

If you are referring to pure as in not mixed, there is a danger that "double red", "triple red", "orange flash" traits are not fixed. Their traits are selective bred. So it also depends on how many generations they have been selective bred, and genetics of the original parents. There is also the danger of strains being outcrossed, hence having recessive genes of other strains.

If I am not wrong, the only way to tell if they are "pure" is if they breed true, i.e. all the offsprings look like their parents.

Edit: An interesting article on the genetics of Yellow Gold Cockatoo apistogramma from www.apistogramma.com.
http://www.apistogramma.com/cms/inde...d=21&Itemid=27

[hwchoy]

best is if you have scooped them out of their native habitat

[iwishweallcouldwin]

hi chuencp,

looks like i'm the opposite of you! my vjietas' colouration doesn't seem to be as strong as they should be, hence i'm just wondering how we can identify if the apistos we see in the market are pure macmasteris or vjietas or not haha.

[ahaetulla]

What is the definition of pure?

If you are referring to the original wild form, then those that are "double red", "triple red", "orange flash" and what have you, are not "pure".

If you are referring to pure as in not mixed, there is a danger that "double red", "triple red", "orange flash" traits are not fixed. Their traits are selective bred. So it also depends on how many generations they have been selective bred, and genetics of the original parents. There is also the danger of strains being outcrossed, hence having recessive genes of other strains.

If I am not wrong, the only way to tell if they are "pure" is if they breed true, i.e. all the offsprings look like their parents.

Interesting. I think there are several definitions of 'pure' here.

1. The ability to breed true. A common definition for ie. dog breeds. If you breed two purebred poodles together, all the offspring will look like poodles, because essentially they are poodles.

The problem here is that there is the question of whether 'purebred' dog breeds are really 'pure'. After generations of inbreeding and linebreeding, you can develop a pure breed that breeds true, but are they 'pure' in the sense that they are natural and exactly as they would be found in the wild? Like selectively-bred 'double red' etc apistos, these are merely artificially bred strains, though in long-domesticated animals like dogs the artificially selected traits are much more pronounced.

2. Species. I think this is iwishweallcouldwin's definition (individuals of a species whose lineage is species-specific and doesn't have any input from other species). Breeding a horse and a donkey (two different species) is possible, but the features of offspring vary quite widely. Genetically, there is also variance as offspring may have differing numbers of chromosomes. (Then again, the concept of a species is rather nebulous because there are so many definitions...)

3. Regional variants (like hwchoy said, 'scooping them out of their natural habitat'. Environmentally questionable, but essentially this is the definition). I think this is what the meaning of 'pure' is, in its most essential form. Populations of a species can vary in colour, size, behaviour, genetics etc depending on which localities they are found in. Regional variants are maintained for certain species eg. endlers, for which the name of the collection locality is placed behind the species name for identification. Purists keep and breed locality strains separately so as to maintain the 'pureness' of each strain.