Is 'reselling' an acceptable practice?

[bossteck]

[Perhaps we can split the moral discussion into a seperate thread - mods, please do as you see fit]

Shouldn't reselling be discouraged in this forum?

I mean, if there were some form of restoration work done prior to the reselling, I would be more willing to accept a higher resale price.

However, if it is simply taking advantage of one person's urgent need to clear equipment and profiting for it, I think it is just not right.

Further more... taking something that already has a previous owner and selling it as if you were the only previous owner or even making false claims about the duration of usage of that item is in fact cheating.

Lastly, not sure about the rest, but if I were to buy a second hand item, I would expect that the seller was the only previous owner, else I would consider the item to be third-hand, fourth-hand and so on (if there's such a term) but you get my point right?

Nevermind that reselling is happening everywhere else, as moderators of this forum, you guys can have a say on this matter and put an end to it if you feel that same as me. I will be the first one to support honesty in the AQ.

[dream]

What if the seller said that the item is third-hand and so forth? Is it acceptable? Willing buyer willing seller, in my opinon...

[bossteck]

Please don't get me wrong, my emphasis is on honesty on the part of the seller.

If the seller is honest and admits that the stuff he is selling is a third-hand item, and the buyer is accepting of that, then of course I have no problem with it.

My point is, a person should not profit from buying from one person, and then selling to another.

I have a suggestion here, not sure if it would help, upon each successful dealing in the marketplace, if the seller is willing, he can post a reply and state that the item is sold to whom and for how much before closing the thread, better yet if a photograph of the item can be posted as well.

Yes it requires effort, but if this can help prevent other members here from being 'conned' by resellers in AQ, I think it is a worthwhile effort.

[Sunfire]

Personally I think it is the responsiblity of the buyer.
Principles is:

• No one forced the buyer to buy at this price
• No one forced the seller to sell at this price either

The buyer has the right to ask and the seller has the right to answer.

This is a grey area.

Perhaps some of the brothers here have the impression that hobbyists are not supposed to make any profit.

Food for thought: Some scenarios

A has a spare tank that he has gotten free from *unnamed*. He puts it on the forum to sell at $5. Is this right? It is a form of reselling.

B bought a CO2 set for $50 dollars. He breaks up the unit and sells the regulator and tank for $30 each, making 10 dollar profit. Do you think it is right? It also is a form of reselling.

Also related:

What if a person inter-sells items from different forums too? E.g. I buy from this guy from Arofanatics.com and sells it to another guy on AQ.

[valice]

It is difficult for the moderators police any reselling. We can easily state in rules and regulations that reselling not allowed. But dishonest or bo chaped sellers can jolly-well ignore it and still do it.

But bossteck, your suggestion to ask buyers to post a review or feedback on the transaction is taken note of. We are in the process of reviewing the whole marketplace to improve it for the benefits of both buyer and seller.

Please continue to provide any suggestions to make AQ a better environment for all like-minded hobbyists.

[bossteck]

Hi Sunfire,

For the scenarios you mentioned, if I am the buyer and I know about it, I won't buy from the seller in all 3 scenarios you have mentioned. The problem is, as buyers, we often do not know about such things.

Which is where the opportunity for profiteering and exploitation of someone's lack of infomation comes in.

Just ask yourself, would you buy a chiller for $200 from someone, knowing that the seller had just gotten it a few days ago from another person for $100?

I agree with you that buyer / seller has their own personal choice, but to make choices, we need to be informed, and you and I both know that it is near impossible to keep track of all the buy-sell postings in so many forums.
While it is impossible to prevent such 'reselling' from happening, we could still take our stand and say we are against it.

If there are such 'resellers' around, I would most certainly like to know about it so that I can be more cautious when dealing with the person.

[hwchoy]

the main difference about buying/selling on a hobby community forum is this:

members of a forum are not "completely strangers". we are bound by a common interest. very often members will choose to sell their unused or excess equipment or stuff to fellow members at a "friendly" price, as a goodwill or kaki-hood. we sell our fellow hobbyist our stuff in the hope that they find better use for others who share our passion.

under the above circumstance, I would not support a pure commercial justification of willing seller/willing buyer where any profits is accrued to the reseller's good business acumen, for we are no longer dealing with pure commercial motivation.

if you advertise on the straits times, then yes, the reseller would be completely justified in any profits that he can make.

[bossteck]

Hi Vincent,

I fully understand that it is not possible for moderators to do the policing.

But let me give an analogy:

Suppose U-turning at a traffic junction is not allowed, a no U-turn sign would be put up.

We don't expect a traffic police to stand at the junction and fine all drivers to u-turn illegally, but the message is clear, it is against the law.

Then the onus will go to the drivers to abide by the law and the public to inform the authorities by whatever means of offenders should they deem fit.

The no u-turn sign will never be effective in preventing all illegal u-turns, but it will send the message that such act will not be tolerated and will hopefully to a certain extent, prevent the majority of people from doing so.

Cheers!

[ranmasatome]

Actually as a buyer on a 2nd hand market...
i really don't care if the item is resold or not.... if i find the price nice..and i check that the item is properly working.. and everything is okay for me...i buy it..
I think the problem here is not so much if the seller is profitting.. but if he is honest enough to tell you. and if you can live with that fact. Then just make your own decision accordingly loh..

IF someone buys a 2ft T5HO light in full wokring condition for $5 2nd hand and resells it for $15. would you buy it knowing that it is 2nd hand and that this guy is profitting? Maybe for you.. you can't live with this knowledge and won't buy it, but i sure as hell would. its freakin cheap...there is no way i can get that price at any other time...besides its a fully working product.. only thing is if you can live with yourself knowing that this guy is profitting from you.. but you have to give him due credit for being "smart". i may not like the guy one bit for his ethics and think he is an a$$...but its not like i want to be his buddy.. i just want the damn light besides its cheap and has no problems with it. Now.. if i were selling to a "friend" like Choy said.. then its a whole new ball game.

Now... people that sell defective items at a profit... wah.. this one lagi best... this one must die.

[Nicky]

And what if the NEW (same item) of this USED item in question has appreciated in value due to supply or demand issue ?

[ranmasatome]

Wah!!! deep sia nicky...hahahaha..
sometimes i think its our own duty to find out these things before buying/selling on 2nd hand market...
problem is that most people don't. Perhaps its culture or something but i find people like to be spoon-fed all the information.

[Nicky]

" Where got deep? "

Say Eheim model ABC used to be $120.
- Someone sells a used filter for $80.
- Person Z buys it.

Then with all the possible reasons the supplier increase the price to say, $150.
- Person Z sells it for $85.
- Person Y buys it.

But it can still be a good buy, right?

IMO, when we buy things from the net we must know what we are looking for and how much it is worth to us.
Once you buy it, don't need to look back and feel bang.

I think this topic surfaced because of 1 individual probably buy and sell at a profit but yet did not deliver the goods at all or not to the promised specs.
But in all honesty, I feel that buyers could have execised better caution.

[bossteck]

IF someone buys a 2ft T5HO light in full wokring condition for $5 2nd hand and resells it for $15. would you buy it knowing that it is 2nd hand and that this guy is profitting? Maybe for you.. you can't live with this knowledge and won't buy it, but i sure as hell would. its freakin cheap...there is no way i can get that price at any other time...besides its a fully working product.. only thing is if you can live with yourself knowing that this guy is profitting from you.. but you have to give him due credit for being "smart". i may not like the guy one bit for his ethics and think he is an a$$...but its not like i want to be his buddy.. i just want the damn light besides its cheap and has no problems with it. Now.. if i were selling to a "friend" like Choy said.. then its a whole new ball game.

Now... people that sell defective items at a profit... wah.. this one lagi best... this one must die.

Hi Ranmasatome,

I know this is just an illustration, but it kinda showed the attitude that "if the price is right, who cares?" that most people have.

I have nothing against you (please don't be offended), but won't you be curious on how the seller in this case manage to get the item at such a low price assuming you know about it? Won't be ask yourself questions like: Was the item stolen? Were someone cheated? Or like Choy mentioned, was the item given out of good-will and then later resold by the person who received it?

I guess the issue we're really discussing is not reselling per se, the term was used in another discussion from which this was split, perhaps "profiteering" would more accurately reflect what I am against.

This is a discussion on ethics, at the end of the day, there's no right or wrong opinion, I just want to find out about everyone's views. That's all.

Cheers!

[Nicky]

Another scenario..

Someone (Person A) you know wants to get rid of his equipment of planted tank, fast.
So you buy from him, a Dennerle entire CO2 system for a steal, say $20.

Then you figured you probably don't need such a fantastic setup and decided to sell.
Are you obliged to sell in AQ for equal or lower price?

Even so, how do you justify 'equal' price?
Is your initial transportation cost part of the equation?
How about your time and effort in building the network to know this Person A to begin with? What value would you put on it?

[bossteck]

How about this?

Your plant A has over-grown, you take the time to trim it nicely and pack them into tubs and posted a thread on "FOC - Plant A".

One guy collected 2 tubs from you.

That very same night, the person, "figured he probably don't need" that much of Plant A and posted "WTS - Plant A $2 a tub".

Do you accept such a behaviour?

[Nicky]

.. perhaps "profiteering" would more accurately reflect what I am against.

In everything we use and see in our everyday life, someone somewhere somehow profited from making it available for us.

IMO, whether this person open a shop and hence justify making the profit, or otherwise, should not be too much of a concern for buyer

[bossteck]

Or maybe this...

You see Person A giving away 6 Altum Angels.

You indicated that you want them but was too late, Person A told you that Person Z has already reserved them and told you that you're next in line if Person Z doesn't collect them.

Too bad, Person Z collected the 6 Altums, he then offers to sell all 6 to you at $60, it is good bargain... what do you do? How would you feel?

Was Person Z really "smart" like what Ranmasatome has labelled in post #9?

[Nicky]

If I am the person offering FOC plant, I don't feel happy and will 'black list' this cheapo fellow.
That's it.. move on.

It's a culture thing.. many years back I was in overseas and saw this newspaper stand/shelf.
All I have to do is to slot in a coin, and the shelf unlocked itself and I pick up a copy and closed it back.

If this were in Singapore you will probably find someone putting a coin in, take all the newspaper and start selling the newspaper

Back to your topic..

The Mods are right to wanting to take action if there is a cash transfer but goods delivered were not to agreed specs or not goods not handed over.
But other than that, IMO it is very difficult to administer this kind of rule (or discourage this type of behaviour) that you are suggesting

[bossteck]

Hi Nicky,

Yes I understand you point about the limitation of what the moderators can do and I understand that even if you guys are paid, and work full time as moderators of AQ, you still can't prevent such things from happening.

But at least I hope the "no u-turn" sign can be put up.

[Nicky]

However, if it is simply taking advantage of one person's urgent need to clear equipment and profiting for it, I think it is just not right.

Let me relate to you a real life example.. some 2 years back my company wants to rid the 6ft planted set.
With my help, a buddy paid S$350 for:

1. 6x2x2 ft, 12mm tank (by a reputable tank maker) - no scratch whatsoever
2. Walnut color, 3-door-cabinet (by the same tank maker)
3. 2 pcs of Eheim 2028 (with all the media)
4. 1 pc of 0.5HP chiller
5. 3 pieces of MH lights
6. All substrates
7. All fishes
8. All plants
9. All equipment (tweezer, scissor, etc) and all power equipment such as timers and all fish food and plant food.
10. My labor to help him clear the tank and help him move.

How can I expect him to sell all the above at the same price?
He got it cheap because we were in the rush to rid the setup.
And he has sold the chiller and with that alone, he has taken all he has invested.

I think it is ok, he is at the right place at the right time, with the cash.