Advice on keeping Discus within a planted tank

[aquanatix]

Been seeing lots of planted tanks with Discus inside. Looks damn beautiful but never really got a chance to try them out until now.
Currently experimenting Discus within my 2FT planted tank. Managed to place one of my 2inch juveniles within but it sorta became stressed and decided to just hide behind my driftwood. Anyone here with experience in keeping the fishes in a planted tank?
I have but several concerns...
1)Tank temperature is kinda on a low side,26-28.(fan turned off to raise temperature).But with temperature raised,won't other flora and fauna be affected?What would be an ideal balance?
2)Black oyama background which many Discus hobbyists will say stresses a discus fish.
3)Solo Discus,might not work out as they tend to do better with at least 4?But then again this IS a experiment tank so 4 might be alittle overkill in 2Footer?
4)Ph levels due to Co2 injection 6hours daily as Discus are known to be very sensitive towards PH levels?

The above are but just some of my worries,hope fellow hobbyist here can help enlighten me on this subject and guide be towards keeping these fishes in a plated setup!

[equidorz]

placing more discus together would definetely make your discus less stress. i think your fish hide behind the dw because it's alone. try adding more discus. acutally 4 x 2 inches discus inside your 2ft is good but when they grow up you will have to find bigger homes for them. for the temperature part you can actually still keep in low. the discus will adapt to the temperature after it settles down. i'm not a discus expert. just my 2 cents worth. hopes this help.

[illumnae]

firstly, you cannot keep a discus planted tank with just a 2ft tank. there's not enough space to maintain a healthy discus community. i'll address it more further down.

1) temperature shouldn't be that big an issue. i have my 4x2x2 planted discus tank maintained with no chiller/fan and both flora and fauna are doing fine

2) black oyama will be fine if you have a light coloured foreground. the discus will get used to it. so use either white sand or have a lush light green foreground. it is the constant dark surroundings that will stress the discus out.

3) solo discus won't work, you'll want a community of at least 5...and you need at the VERY least a 3ft tank to maintain 5 discus comfortably in a planted tank, and even that might be considered cramped already. do your discus a favour and either upgrade to a (preferably) 4ft, or keep smaller fauna in your tank. apistos will do well in a 2ft planted tank.

4) ph fluctuations with co2 won't matter so much

[aquanatix]

You made very good points regarding the subject illumnae,realized space constraint issues hence the use of a "to be culled" 1inch piece from my current batch of LSS fries!
What sort of flora and fauna do you have in your tank?Without the use of a fan or a chiller,temperature will naturally maintain at ambient temperature of about 28deg celcius?That in itself is perfectly fine for discus up keeping but what about temperature sensitive flora that require a colder temperature?
Regarding colour,though the use of black oyama and the exception of black GEX soil...
EVERYTHING else is a lush green.Stress markings were gone and all fins are erect,the only thing is that it sorta hides near the densely planted background?The addition of another piece made things abit better as they now feed readily etc...
Lastly,how many discus are residing within your 422 tank?Did you introduce them within your tank as full adult pieces or raised them there as fries?

[illumnae]

My water temperature is around ambient temperature probably, never used a thermometer so i'll never know haha. as for flora...nothing too delicate: hairgrass, red tiger lotus, crypt wendtiis, spiky moss, didiplis diandra, blyxa japonica, crinium calimanstratum and 2 swords.

for the black oyama, as long as your fish are ok, it's cool...mine were dark and stressed up till the point my hairgrass lawn grew in. they either hid near the plants with normal colouration, or were totally black and hovering at the back. now they're constantly at the front in full colour display.

2 discus in a 2ft can still pose problems. unless they're a pair, you'll end up with 1 bullying the other to death probably. that's why a minimum number of 5 is recommended - to even out the aggression so no 1 fish gets bullied excessively. even so, a 2ft tank should be about 14 gallons? still too small for 2 discus to live comfortably. rule of thumb is 1 discus in 10 gallons, and that's for bare tanks...more space SHOULD be required for planted tanks, but i suppose you can get by barely by still following the guideline...but 2 in 14gallons should be pushing it.

i currently have 10+ pieces of discus in my 422, still not fully grown yet. i made both mistakes of overstocking and introducing them as fries/juvs. that's how i know firsthand that 1. always keep discus stocking within the guidelins and 2. always introduce dicus to planted tanks as adults

[aquanatix]

When you say "2. always introduce dicus to planted tanks as adults"...How so?
Are they introduced as adults because of stability issues or simply because of clearer size definition when adhering to guidelines?(1 discus-10gallons)
Also,as discus do exhibit the blowing habit when foraging for food.Do you experience any issues with your discus blowing unsightly holes in your gravel bed or uprooting your plants in the process?

[illumnae]

Because the maintenance of a planted tank runs contrary to the maintenance of a discus tank to ensure full growth of the discus. you'll need frequent large water changes (most people say 100% daily or thereabouts) as well as numerous daily feedings of high protein food (beefheart) to ensure that your discus grow well. doing either in a planted tank spells trouble. if you keep juv discus in a planted tank, the odds are that they'll probably grow to a maximum size of say 3.5-4 inches when full grown, as opposed to 5+ inches when kept optimally.

to put things in perspective: when i was switching my low tech planted tank to a higher one, i kept the discus in temporary homes of ceramic jars for 3 weeks with daily 70% water changes. After putting them back into the planted tank, it's weekly 50% water changes. The discus grew more in those 3 weeks in the ceramic jars than in the last 3-4 months in my planted tank.

As for the beefheart issue....if you can't siphon out excess beefheart after every feeding, you're in for a royal headache with clogged filters, worms in your gravel/wood/stones and dismal water quality. This is another reason besides growth that discus tanks need frequent large water changes.

Anyway on a more practical note, adult discus are more hardy and resilient. they might not adapt as easily to change as juv discus, but they survive change better...don't know if this makes much sense, but it's true

As for food foraging, i have no problems with holes or uprooted hairgrass.

[aquanatix]

That sure made alot of sense! Guess it's back to the drawing boards for me...
Considering a cleaner diet say frozen bloodworms, how much of a difference would that make in terms of maybe cleanliness? All my discus were brought up on a diet of frozen BW,Tetrabits and the occasional beef or pigheart if i happen to visit discus shops. They grew reasonably well perhaps not as fast as those raised on a strict beefheart diet?

Sizing of discus is definitely an issue,just can't stand adult discus that look abit "stunted" as opposed to their bare tank counterparts!But then again,raising adult discus purely in a bare tank THEN transferring them to a planted poses some issues as well.

[illumnae]

But then again,raising adult discus purely in a bare tank THEN transferring them to a planted poses some issues as well.

do you mean in terms of adaptation or in terms of your space constraint? If it's the former...don't need to worry too much. Despite the rumour that discus are highly sensitive fish, they're actually quite hardy and very adaptable...they're just fussy and picky after all, how many fish around can survive daily 100% water changes with water just added straight from the tap and antichlorine poured in right from the start when the tank is empty? most fish die from shock, or from the concentrated antichlorine they're exposed to before the water comes rushing in. and anyway, chances are that if you buy a discus, it's coming from a bare tank anyway. remember adult discus will be more hardy than the juvs in adapting they might take longer to adapt, but their chances of survival are higher.

as for food, i'd recommend a staple of tetrabits and a snack of frozen bloodworms. FBW are not nutritious as they contain mainly fats and water if i'm not mistaken. but you will see a difference in growth feeding these as opposed to feeding beefheart. Beefheart has, if i remember correctly, over 80% protein content while tetrabits has 46-49%. Not all of the protein is readily digestable, so the difference is probably greater. That's why a pure beefheart diet is usually used to pump juv discus up fast, before switching to bits when they are grown. Juvs are also recommended to be fed up to 8 times a day in small quantities to maximise growth.

Finally, something that i didn't add before...if you buy a batch of juv discus and raise them to adulthood, chances are that you will have a couple of slow growers and stunts in that batch. You're gonna have to deal with that, as well as with the bullying that will likely result from the difference in size....too much of a headache. getting 5 discus to spread aggression isn't gonna help when 4 of them are twice the size of the last one. it's obvious which will be bullied to death.

That's why ultimately, my recommendation is to let the discus be raised to adulthood in a bare tank first before buying them and transferring them into a planted tank. It's probably gonna cost you more upfront, but i believe the lower amount of problems as well as the beauty of the completed tank outweigh the cost

[luenny]

Just saw this thread and I agree with what Yi Xiang said. Adults is the way to go especially if you are considering planted tank and this is your first time with discus. Remember that juv are less tolerant and fall sick easier and most of the time the medication needed cannot be applied directly to the planted tank without knocking your ecosystem out. So go with adults. Saying that, I am trying to grow a bunch of fries in a planted tank now (feeding them beefheart at least twice a day). This is really against anybody's advice but I have no more tank, it's either this or throw them away. I must say they really grow up well and they do eat and poo a lot. That's why even with 3 times large water changes a week, my ecosystem still got screwed up. Darn!

[aquanatix]

Valuable input indeed! I've been keeping discus fish for years so the water changes,stunting,diseases,feeding regime and what not don't really stop me.It's just that i never really expect to be stumped when it came to a planted setup!
Luckily for me i do have more then a few adult and semi adult fishes so it won't be an issue,immediate problems now would probably be the choice of flora within the tank seeing as how discus like warmer temperatures as opposed to the colder waters needed to maintain some species of flora.
What are the choices of flora you guys are growing in your planted setup or recommend?

[illumnae]

i still think your main concern is to get a bigger tank than your current 2ft for a planted discus setup

[aquanatix]

Guess you guys are still mistaken..my 2footer is just a prelude to my 4footer?
It's just that i didn't wanna dive right in before trying it out.Hence the use of to be culled pieces in one of my 2footer planted.
Say i'm setting up a new 422 or 322 planted...What are the choices of flora i could possibly go for? Care to share how you guys maintain your discus planted?

[luenny]

I used to have 4 young adult blue snakes in my 2.5 footer with mainly driftwood, moss, cabomba and nana. They look fabulous and did very well there with the zebras and corys. They finished almost anything I put in there (which is mostly bloodworms and pellets). In fact they did so well until they spawn in the tank. Unfortunately, once the fries started free swimming, they were nowhere to be found.

Well, I think the key is feed moderately (make sure they finished up most of the food in like 10 seconds) and change water a lot. I did a 50% water change 3 times a week for that tank.

[aquanatix]

Simple setup you have there luenny,your tanks must've looked beautiful!
Unfortunately after a talk with illumnae,i'm more keen on apistogrammas now!
Dammit,kinda regret accepting his call the other night!
Anyway,i've just got my GEX gravel and i'm now slowly sourcing for equipment for my planted.Just pray hard i don't abandon my 3foot project and go for apistogrammas!
I kinda have two spare 1.5 footers lying around and they look way more tempting then my 3footer!

[illumnae]

so set up all 3 tanks

1 planted discus and 2 apisto tanks...perfect!

[luenny]

You know something? Discus and apisto probably can coexist together in the same tank. Why not give that a try?

[illumnae]

They can definitely co-exist, but an apisto is gonna "disappear" into a large discus tank. The way i see it, large tanks are usually made to be appreciated from afar, and thus you have large focus fish in them...if you keep, for example, 1 pair of apistos in a 422 discus tank...the apisto will kind of blend in with the tetras if you're appreciating your tank from afar. then if you want a planted tank and are gonna have lush plant mass, most of the time the apistos may be hiding in the foiliage.

small tanks on the other hand, are by nature made to be appreciated up close...and it is in such tanks, where you can watch the apisto in action and in his full glory...that's when you fully appreciate apisto-keeping

this is just my opinion

[luenny]

You may have a point there. Hmm ... Can you keep more than 1 pair of apisto in a 4 footer with the discus? Well, just set up a big 4 footer for discus and a few more smaller ones for apistos then.