Sturisoma Spawned (aureum?)

[David Moses Heng]

altum_lover76,
I'd suggest getting another two if you want to breed them.
The chances of a pair are much higher with four.
But if you just want a good cleaning crew two is just fine.

Okay. will try do so after i am done with the rescaping.

[celticfish]

Sweet Jesus, I just looked again and saw FOUR fish at the spawning spot!
This will put a twist to tomorrows egg count...


Update:
I counted 146 eggs this morning! OMG!
akoh was right about them breeding worse than rabbits!
If one fish averages about 70 eggs that would mean two contributed.
But then what was the fourth fish doing?!?

This time the central mass of eggs are tighter.
But some stray ones at the usual spot on the silicon below.
There's even three stuck to the spaces inbetween the filter vents of the power head...

[celticfish]

Picture of brood "3".
There may be eggs from as many as three females here...

[celticfish]

Update:
Well this guy is certainly not shooting blanks!
Did an egg count today and 136 were still viable.
Not bad at all...

On a side note, his cheek odontodes are now "fuller".
I can see them now without squinting my eyes.

I have now decided to use my 4 ft planted tank as a grow out.
Had a terribly "painful" time getting the rummy nose and, the worst, SAE out.
Still remaining in the tank are the "three amigos" rummies...

A word of caution... yamatos are nasty things.
At least as far as sturisoma fry are concern.
Placed 3 into an L-sized tank with 20 yamatos (this is my kill algae tank).
All gone the next day.
Dang they even tried to go for my green farlowellas!
So off they went!

[celticfish]

UPDATE:

They are a day late... just saw two fish at it in the same spot.
I reckon the egg count should be in the 70 or so range if they are indeed S. Aureum.

I can now ID two firm males with the cheek odontodes.
Three suspect females from the gravid look and "abruptly" rounded belly.
And one unknown.

How to grow out the fry...

[celticfish]

@ akoh,
I finally got the "kailan" yesterday.
Blanched it and weigh it down.
The fry are all over it.
Thanks!


UPDATE:
Egg count for brood 4 is 93 eggs.

[lyh]

Bro may I know what is the size of your tank? My fries normally do not feed on the vege I put in and die off after afew days hence the need to transfer them into another tank.

[celticfish]

lyh,

The adults are kept in a 3 ft tank with some L046.
I scrape and siphon the eggs out sometime on the fourth or fifth day.
When I do so some fry hatch right away.
I find that when i do this earlier I have higher egg loss as I'm not there to fan the eggs.
They get infected quite easily and get fungus and infect the one beside them, especially in a confined trap.
The above is observation from my first two broods.
The other side of the coin is to let them hatch in the main tank.
However, when I think of how to catch them... OMG, No way!
Now I try to time the scrapping as close to the hatch time as possible, day 5.
This maximizes the time dad cares and fans them - less work for me!
And when i harvest quite a few hatch, as many as 30%.

I have read reports from some breeders in PF and they say, the fry will find the high flow rate areas and just hang out there.
They will hardly move around to forage and hence starve to death in the first few critical days.
Which explains your experience on the high casualty rate in the main tank.
This is why I didn't consider raising them in the main tank at all.

For the kailan leaves, I'm doing the following.
Blanch the kailan with really hot water in a small rice bowl (I soak for a few muinutes).
Freshly blanched kailan leaves (actually just a little piece 5 cm^2) are a little imprevious to the fry but they will still munch on it.
Two days old leaf, after a little softening from the rotting process, gets eaten quickely.
This is when you see them make dents and holes appearing quickely on the leaf.
Remove leaf end of second day.
I also add a fresh leaf beginning of the second day so you day old and two day old leaves.
This ensure there is always a softened leaf.

I intend to remove them from the trap after about two weeks to a month.
I haven't decided yet as I'm still quite new to sturisoma fry.
Once they have reach a decent size I will put them into my 4 ft planted.
But I'm really worried about rotting kailan and green water...
Really hoping algae wafers will be sufficient though.

[akoh]

Bro, another vege for your thinker ! try fresh chinese lettuce ! they love it too !

[celticfish]

akoh,

Some of them literally don't feed themselves even with the veggie in.
I now continue the veggie with crushed algae wafer.
But the fry deaths still quite high.

But you are definitely spot on, on the "worse than rabbit" description.
The last spawn was actually TWO!
When I went to get the spawn on Saturday I realized there was another on the back glass panel.
And guess what, last night on the same back panel spot is another brood...

[celticfish]

Got another brood this past Sunday night...

@ lyh,

I'm probably having the same problem as you in getting the fry to eat.
Even in the fry trap and the kailan leaves.
Some of them hardly move and, I believe, literally starve to death where they stay.
Jeez!

I think I'm going to try some green peas this weekend.
Maybe the fine particle might be more conducive for their small mouths.

[lyh]

Hi bro normally I feed my newborns with very fine powdered commercial food. In my case they don't seem to recognize vege as their food.

As they seldom move, I deliberately place them in the fly trap to increase their chance of coming in contact with food but some of them still die for don't know what reason.

[celticfish]

lyh,
Exactly the same here.
I think its starvation that's causing the deaths.
I can see that the ones that die are very scrawny looking.
Hardly any of the bulkier ones die.

Here's a "brain fart"...
What about lowering the water line for the fry trap so they cannot stay verticle.
This forces them horizontal and puts their face into the food!

[lyh]

celticfish,
This method might work but the low water level might stress them and with that little water the parameters are hard to control. So far I think the breeding trap works the best already. I've tried to bring them up in the main tank many times but I'm often left with none

[celticfish]

lyh,
To what size do you keep them in the trap?
I released the first batch into my 4 ft planted and, like you, no survivors.
And I just released the second batch into it...
I do hope they are large enough to survive.

[lyh]

celticfish,
Normally I keep them to the size of about an inch or so before I release them into the tank. I also lookout for behaviours, like they searching for food in the breeding trap before I release them. Those that I think will not be able to find food on their own will remain in the trap Normally in a brood there will be a number of them that needs more attention compared to the rest

[celticfish]

@ lyh,
I'm now feeding the kailan and crush canivore tabs.
It seems to be better as I had only two casualties for this brood (lost count!).
Now I have another brood in the tank.


Some refinements for the "processing" of broods.
I decided to wait a day later (sixth day) to harvest the second most recent, had one more on Wednesday Jeez!
This time practically all hatch right after the harvest.
With only five eggs from about 90+ unhatched.
This reduces the eggs going bad from not having dad's TLC till hatching.
Supplementing crushed canivore tab to the kailan also brought up the mortality rate.

The "unknown" for me is release size/time to the main tank.
So far those released to the 4ft planted tank have appalling mortality rates.
The two that survived well are actually in my 2 ft breeding L046 tank!

[Gecko]

Guys

The way to cut the mortality rate is really quite hard work....I did the following with less than 5% deaths....

At one time I had 8 to 10 floating breeding traps with about 10 fry in each.

Everyday they are fed vege leaf supplemented with flakes...uneaten flakes cleared every day and vege changed every other day...the water in the trap is forced out and replaced with fresh water from main tank every 12 hours.

The water must be pristine and highly oxgenated. Once they hit 1.5" to 2", the mortality rate is zero...and can be released or sold.

They do not compete well for food, hence, food must be abundant and literally all around them in the early days. And since the food (flakes) go bad easily, uneaten stuff must be physically removed frequently.

They need to have air flow directed directly into them, etc....

Backbreaking work.

[celticfish]

@ Gecko,

Totally agree about the back-breaking work.
I'm now feeding them "kailan" with crushed tetra bits and canivore tabs.
This combination seems to work.
But I may try unsalted canned peas next.
Read this from a thread at PCF.
This might be less work, I hope...


Update:
Just had a peep and guess what... they are at it again!!!
Like clock work I tell you...

[celticfish]

As I don't see a spawn yet I am assuming they are taking break, thank God!
They have been at it since the last weekend of January till the last weekend.
Spawning around midnight od Sunday or Monday, latest.
I can now ID two males distinctively and the rest should be females.
I have no idea how many actual spawns there are but its eleven weekends straight!

The fry count is abyssmal though.
I have been busy and neglecting them.
Most of those that died are scrawny looking.
They also don't help themselves by foraging.
They'd rather stay in one spot and starve to death than forage...
Even in a fry trap such deaths cannot be helped.
But the older ones are about 1.5 to 2" TL now.

Then again they may go at it tonight!