What is 'German-grade' Apistogramma?

[celticfish]

My turn...

I'd like to think there there is no such thing as "German grade".
Having said that, the Germans breeders do have an idea/ideal of how the fish should look, but always using the wild form (shape in general) as reference.
Using this "ideal form", they selectively breed them for it.
Intensity of colour, also, comes along while they are conducting the selective breeding.
Its "added-on" to the "ideal" form as they go along in their breeding program.
German breeders seem to be the "only" breeders concerned with breeding for the "ideal form" of a paticular species.
Pratically everyone else goes for colour at the expense of everything else, imho.

I remember when I was into discus many many years ago...
btw in those days, not many people had bred disucs yet.
You could mostly get wild specimens only.
Eventually, the asians managed to "mass produce" them casuing amazement in the western discus community.
However, the asian form of discus usually had a chin that sloped inwards causing the fish to not look round.
The German breeders, as a collective, bred for a "round" body shape.
However, they also bred for "hi-body" (actually "longer" dorsal and anal fins) and "elongated" fins (trailing tips of the dorsal and anal fins).
But they kept the "round" body shape.
It reach a point where, at least for myself, I could tell if a discus was from "asian" breeding or German breeders.
Believe me, it was very very obvious!
Today, the discus has been totally bastardized, imho.
Everyone's going for literal "round" shape, large size, latest "strain" (though it doesn't breed true thus should not be called a strain like the turqiouse discus) at the expense of the "natural" shape as the germans aimed for.

So essentially, I put forward that you could recognize a fish of German descent/breeding/form, as they breed to an "ideal" with the wild form as refernce, but I don't think you could call anything "German grade" (except first generation fish you get direct from Germany because everthing else from that generation would not have been bred IN Germany, literally!).
btw you can start with German stock and end up with "rubbish" after a few generations if you do not take the "care" as they do.

To add to yorky's comment on intensely coloured wild individuals...
Wild dicus had such specimens too.
They called them "royals" in the "old days".
Mind you, "old days" is before Jack Wattley mastered the turquoise discus. Not just "any" specimen would exhibit the full bodied blue striped pattern we take for granted today.
Most specimens only had the blue stripes around the head and anal fins region like brown discus.
But, there were naturally occuring specimens which had blue stripes on the whole body, full-bodied.
Though rare, they exist naturally and were also the dominant ones in the colony.
These were the very expensive ones called "royal blue" or "royal green" discus.

Man, I need to go to sleep!...

[illumnae]

lovely writeup celticfish...i think it sums things up pretty well

one technicality though, the reference to "German grade" would indeed be what you mentioned about the "ideal" form. the reference to a "grade" would be the kind of standard that the German breeders of yore sought to achieve. So perhaps a "German grade" wouldn't have to refer to fish directly from Germany or first generations from Germany, but individual fish that hit the standard that the German breeders sought to achieve?

In this way, lousy fish from Germany (perhaps mass producers from German farms?) would not be classified as "German grade", but high quality fish from the farms that show up as noted by yorky would instead fall into the "German grade" category as well?

so "German grade" would be a reference to quality instead of locality. i think this is a very interesting and fruitful discussion we're having over terms

[mictok]

Well,I think at the end of the day when I am looking out for Apisto,the finnage,colouration and budget will be the consideration.
I will pay for a pair with nice finnage & colouration despite of the country of origin & of course with a deep pocket.
I wouldnt paid for a pair of "German" grade with poor quality.
I will go all out for wild pair for surprises.

[RHX]

As much as i've liked the colours that apistos have. I hate to see it going towards the path of what many fresh ornament fishes have taken, eg show bettas, fancy guppies, show discus, louhan, blood parrots. Where fishes are being selectively breed to enhance the colours or to achieve the body shape that we humans desire of a fish. Or even gradings like CRS which colors & pattern determine the grade of the shrimps.

Like many have said, beauty is it the eyes of the beholder. I would rather appreciate the natural beauty of fishes that they have exibited. I believe with good food, enviroment & water quality, it will bring the best out of the fishes.

As you can see, the trends of the betta keepers. Many have turn to wild bettas to appreciate the natural beauty of the betta species. So why can we appreciate what the fishes exhibit, instead of changing the colours of the fishes?

[doppelbanddwarf]

Even though "German grade" Apistogrammas are indeed more striking in coloration most of the time, I personally feel that the red is too unnatural, having kept a few red strains of agassiziis.
IMHO, the wild caught fishes are nicer for their natural look and well defined lines, which sometimes are not present in bred specimens. I myself have been trying to gradually move towards keeping wild-caught fishes.

[yorky]

Happy to hear the general views of apisto hobbyists especially on retaining the natural look.
But I must admit that what caught the initial attention of most of us, including myself, were man-made ones like the A. caca Triple Red and A. aga Red.

At the end of the day, quality speaks for itself regardless of where its from.
Also, when defining quality, do take note how they breed through.
A pretty fish but with too much inbreeding, IMHO, is not a quality fish... oh oh.. another discussion topic??

For me, I would refrain from using the term 'German-grade' if we are unsure of the source.
I would restrict myself to 'German-bred' if and only if I know for a fact, the fish was commercially bred in Germany.
And not from a quality perspective.

[illumnae]

"German bred" and "German grade" are totally different imo

the latteri feel refers to "quality similar to how the Germans did it", while the former simply means "bred/made in Germany"

one example i can think of offhand is "Dutch style aquascaping". can a Singaporean do "Dutch style aquascaping"? yes he can, so long as he conforms to certain pre-set requirements that make up that particular style of aquascaping. doesn't mean that because a Singaporean does it, it is no longer "Dutch style" but "Singapore style" right? If a Dutchman does Amano style aquascaping, it doesn't make it "Dutch style aquascaping" either simply because the location of the tank was in Holland, or the nationality of the scaper is Dutch

Similarly, if the fish conforms to certain standards that we have come to associate with the results achieved by German breeders (as described by celticfish), there shouldn't be a problem with using the term "German grade" (NOT "German bred")

[yorky]

'German grade' for discus was a fairly well-defined sets of physical attributes hence the term.
Likewise, 'Dutch style' scaping has also recognisable traits.
However its not really the case in apistogrammas hence my very initial question.
What is a defined 'German grade' for apistos?

[benetay]

What an interesting thread! I've never heard of 'German grade' & most possibly made up by some hobbyist to mimic the 'German bred' fish. Why not just say 'AVA grade' or 'an grade'? Grading done by hobbyist is a way to generate sales, should be taken with a pinch of salt. Additionally, apisto should be highlighted by locality not by grade. This is not CRS.

Locality collection is a highly valuable information on the fish.

Coming back to grading, i think it's better to use 'similar' instead of 'grades' Apisto xyz bred by AAA is similar to those of German quality. Grading done by home breeders,farm breeders, commercial breeders are often just to put a higher price tag on their fishes. Nothing more nothing less.

Trade names can often be mistaken by newly discovered fish for those who are fairly new. <-- Another way to generate sales.

My stance will be as always, Apisto is a league above the rest, keep it simple & concise. More often locality is the top valued information then 'similarities' strains.

Another case of hobbyist trying to pull a fast one by terming 'german grade'.

Why don't we try 'Singapore Grade'? I'm sure not many will be interested.

Cheers!

[celticfish]

yorky you stirrer!
Don't even get me started on the "breeding true" part.
This is exactly the reason why I gave up discus, except wild ones.
Non of the "new strains" breed true these days.
Except pigeon blood but the black speckles make them undesirable imho.

Discus fish can get away with a "german grade", I reckon, because they have only one body form.
With the various apisto body form it will be very difficult to define a "german form" though.
And we haven't got to the colour part yet!
Yes limchongyu, I'm in total agreement with the "unatural" colour part!
But you have to agree with the "body form" part, I think?...

Maybe I should advertise my L046 as "celticfish grade"...
How yorky? You wanna buy some?
They breed true with the balck and white stripes, you know?
And! Its "celticfish grade"... What more could you want?!!

[yorky]

ooh.. Benetay, your wittiness makes this a very good read.

On a serious note, not sure if we are at the stage of locality collection.
Plus, it requires supplier to be accurate with the information.
It would be ideal but am sure we'll get there..

[yorky]

Hey Celticfish, the way you care and breed your L46, I've no doubt in the quality.
3 cheers for "celticfish grade"!

[benetay]

If i'm paying top dollar for a fish, all i'm expecting is the true & fair value of the information;Reliability.

I'm more concern of where it was bred then XYZ grades. 'German grades' can be bred in Singapore meaning 'german grades' but 'singapore bred' so does this make sense? Whoever does the grading has to comply with educating the public on grade rules.

1) There is no grades in Apisto (At the moment)
2) relevance of grading (historic information on grading)
3) research on grading & information widely accepted

Cheers!

[illumnae]

ok i propose new and accurate grading system for apistos in future.

Regardless of whether they are bred in Germany, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia, Taiwan, Hong Kong or anywhere in the word:

if they are nice, we grade them "nice apistos"...if they are not nice or inbred or deformed, we grade them "not nice apistos"...if they come fresh from a river, we grade them "wild apistos". wild apistos can also be subgraded as "nice" and "not nice" so they will be "nice wild apistos" and "not nice wild apistos".

since people are so hung up about the use of the word "German", i think my proposed system should hit the sweet spot as it is nationality neutral!

[benetay]

Sounds good. Think stick to the neutral.

[genes]

Wow, this has become quite a debate. Can i just say, no matter german or not. As long as you think the term german grades, singapore grades, taiwan grades is cool for you, just stick to that. Its our personal preference anyway. Lets keep this thread a friendly one.

[mictok]

ok i propose new and accurate grading system for apistos in future.

Regardless of whether they are bred in Germany, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia, Taiwan, Hong Kong or anywhere in the word:

if they are nice, we grade them "nice apistos"...if they are not nice or inbred or deformed, we grade them "not nice apistos"...if they come fresh from a river, we grade them "wild apistos". wild apistos can also be subgraded as "nice" and "not nice" so they will be "nice wild apistos" and "not nice wild apistos".

since people are so hung up about the use of the word "German", i think my proposed system should hit the sweet spot as it is nationality neutral!

Maybe to be a good citizen we can say that it is "nice Singapore apisto" if we manage to breed it.HaHa......
PS:make sure that it is nice....

[hwchoy]

Sorry a newbie question here. No doubt Wilhelm has produced very stunning fishes but are the apistos supposed to look like this in the wild? If not then wouldn't the extra red colouration make them look strange rather than nice?

you are my man

I literally infer from the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the Beholder" to mean that the Beholder being Nature itself. animals acquire their colorations, or "colourlessness", for various reasons and the primary reason is to help them survive and thrive in their habitat.

To me, that is true beauty even if that means NO COLOUR

[yaya]

ok i propose new and accurate grading system for apistos in future.

Regardless of whether they are bred in Germany, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia, Taiwan, Hong Kong or anywhere in the word:

if they are nice, we grade them "nice apistos"...if they are not nice or inbred or deformed, we grade them "not nice apistos"...if they come fresh from a river, we grade them "wild apistos". wild apistos can also be subgraded as "nice" and "not nice" so they will be "nice wild apistos" and "not nice wild apistos".

since people are so hung up about the use of the word "German", i think my proposed system should hit the sweet spot as it is nationality neutral!

I like the idea of it.

[iwishweallcouldwin]

as long as i see the apisto, or any other fish, and i feel 'shiok' about it, and the price is right, i will get it, german or not german, wild or not wild.

think the ultimate aim of buying a fish is for us to enjoy and appreciate its beauty right? as long as at the end of the day, when i sit in front of my tank to view my fishes, and do not feel any form of regret buying it, it will be 'german grade' to me!