Going round in circles

[benetay]

Just a question for all to pounder, have we been going round in circles in apisto keeping? There is only a handful of people whom i know that ventured further.

It's an observation that most of us here are still within the first few apisto e.g.
A.caca,A.tri,A.aga,A.viej,A.mac,

If we keep going round in circles we will never progress further & it will stay at where it is. We need more to venture deeper into it but i'm not sure what is holding all of us back. That is why i'm puzzled with the culture of what is happening.

Please share your views on apisto keeping & venturing out.

Cheers!

[FishSoup]

The popularity of those few species listed is testament to their beauty!
Also, there are multiple colour variants of the same species which many have been moving into.. this would seem especially true for Ap. agassizii.

The only thing that's holding me back is.. fear that i will not be able to properly manage the more expensive, more delicate species. This might apply to some other people too, since together with the desire for the novel, rare species comes the higher price tag, as well as apprehension and uncertainty.

am personally itching to try my hand at Ap. eremnopyge, Ap. elizabethae and the Ap. pulchra group

[yorky]

1. Most LFS only stock the fishes that you listed. They don't stock beyond that.
Why? Because the farms only breed these as they are the easiest to breed.

2. Beyond these, the other species are much more expensive.

3. In the first place, there aren't many apisto players.

4. Its ok to keep just the common ones, just don't keep inbreeding the already inbred apistos.

5. Lastly, LFS don't bother to upgrade their stocks to a higher level.

*disclaimer - all these are my personal views*

[illumnae]

i think availability, price and the fear of trying out "harder" species is what holds people back from venturing into the other species of apistos. however, i have noticed that whenever uncommon species/variants become available locally, they are snapped up very fast, and not always by people on the forum. perhaps it's not that we are going around in circles, but that those keeping the other species are not on the forum?

i've personally moved beyond the species that benetay has mentioned after my 1st pair of cacatuoides (except to try out wilds with a pair of agassizii tefe) and i must say they are beautiful and not at all hard to keep despite the common belief that they are. the barriers now are probably price and availability. how often do you see species besides those mentioned by benetay readily available at "affordable" prices? (caveat: i use the word "affordable" as the generic hobbyist would. i know my idea of an affordable apisto is higher than most, and i know some of you have even higher ideas of what's affordable....but just take the average hobbyist as a yardstick)

[yorky]

Actually I don't think affordability is an issue with Singaporeans.
Apistos suffer from the unfortunate 'small-fish-syndrome'.

Look at the Plecos local community.
Singapore keepers have built quite a reputation in keeping top quality Plecos.
They aren't cheap too... but there seems to be a good following every now and then.
So how come that is possible?

I am making reference to plecos as the style of keeping plecos seems to be more similar to apistos.

[benetay]

Prices aside, i think the fear of trying is more. The fear of expensive apisto dying due to various reasons. So how can we overcome this fear in order to progress further?

I think in general an average pair of apisto should cost around $120-$200 Have not seen superb quality below that. There are generally more apisto now and if the demand is high i believe the supply will match it.

I cannot imagine A.diplo at SGD 1k, why can we pay on other things and scrimp and save on beauties like these?

Actually I don't think affordability is an issue with Singaporeans.
Apistos suffer from the unfortunate 'small-fish-syndrome'.

Well i have to agree, it's not about affordability. I'm sure if all are just as zealous like the lou han craze apisto will be flooding Singapore's market in no time. Paying 88,888 for one LH to make you poor why not use that same amount of money to get a fish room, dump apisto into it?

So what is the true reason behind it? fear?

[Ah_ZhaN]

Majority of the people tend to associate price with size. High price for a small fish where the owners will have difficulty viewing?? No way~!

[benetay]

With such mentality, no wonder there isn't any progression. So i guess the best way is to give up?

[raymond]

i do agree that most people is relectant to pay a high price for a prize pair. but there are still some people who is willing. I would suggest that since there is only a small group of us keeping apisto, we could actually exchange the fishes to generate a wider gene pool, and minimise the inbreeding problem.

[Ah_ZhaN]

With such mentality, no wonder there isn't any progression. So i guess the best way is to give up?

Well, at the same time, small livestocks such as crystal red shrimps can fetch a sky high price~!

So what's the stratagem behind it? -Marketing and publicity.

[FishSoup]

Hmm.. possibly also due to the lack of literature on the rarer species? though after readin what illumnae said ("they are beautiful and not at all hard to keep despite the common belief that they are") i am sorely sorely tempted to get a pair of ap. eremnopyge from apistoworldhk maybe i'll buy a pair back when i go to HK in june !

[doubleace]

For my point of view those that Benetay had mention are most seen locally. Thats why most people or those starter will grab them and the price are not expensive at all.

If choose to get those beautiful and not seen on our shore. We have to get it from overseas. Like Taiwan, Japan, Germany, Hongkong, etc...

But not all country will entertain us ordering just a small amount.

I agreed with Yorky that most LFS just import those most common seen apisto rather than those uncommon/rare apisto. For example if this LFS bring in some beautiful/rare apisto and they are selling at a high price. But not many people will buy instead of viewing it at the LFS. Like that the owner of the LFS will loose profit and end up closing down. That is why I believe that most LFS only import the common apistos.

Price of cause is one of the main thing. If you really like to see those apisto from Germany or Whilem then you have to prepare to fork out more than what you expect of the beauties.

Singaporean does not have an issue of affordability. They can spend huge amount on LH or Aro. But all this keeper most of them are working adults. But for apisto keepers I beileve that there's a mixer of working adults and students. Some students are also trying to save up some amount trying to get those apisto they like but not those over $100 and above.

For fish room is not the matter that everybody can afford or what.. is the space in the house or the nagging from their parents/wife. I believe that this problem is not just from apisto keeper but to everybody that keep fish as pet at home.

I'm 1 of those that trying to squeeze in some place for more tanks and create a "mini fish room" to keep apsitogramma. I also thinking of putting a fish rack in my room too but my girl don't allow. That's why have to drop the idea first. Hope I'm not out of the point..

I think everybody have their own point of view.

[genes]

I think difficulty in finding replacement is also one of the concern in getting the expensive variants. Of course, we could buy more then 1 pair to have some sort of assurance but that means more money involved hence hobbyist may hold back.

[stormchild]

i personally don't think there's any link with keeping the commonly available species with going round in circles.

likewise, i don't consider keeping expensive and rare apistos as a progression for the hobby.

[benetay]

Hmmm, so does it mean if everyone of us keep a.caca will have progression? By obtaining different species at different prices will we be able to know which are easy and difficult and why the reason for people to tag the price highly.

It's the understanding behind the price of why some apisto are rarer then others. If we all base on books and magazine to make our conclusion isn't that only theoretically correct?

Yes i can see what you're trying to say without the linkage but if we look deeper into the problem isn't it the same as why our aquarium industry is always lagging behind other countries? The market is too small, what made it too small? We have to look indepth into the problem rather then to scratch the surface.

Why are all the best fishes available overseas? Because there are huge demand for them and people are willing to pay for it. There is no lack of demand, whereas locally we're lacking. I'm sure if the demand is as huge as our overseas' counterpart, some of the fishes will eventually reach our shores.

That is why on the whole our aquarium industry has been lagging behind others by so many years, if we narrow down to just apisto alone, we are like in the stone age unable to progress forward.

So by saying no linkage is a sweeping statement. Even a small community who are willing to progress will eventually cause a ripple effect. I'm sure if there are 20 apisto keepers who are willing to fork out $300 a pair i'm sure there will be someone willing to bring in.

Therefore are we the ones who just sit around & blame the community for not doing enough or do we blame ourselves for not giving enough.

Thus, are you ready for progression.

Cheers!

[illumnae]

another reason why prices are so high is because the people who are willing to pay a premium for the fish are the same people who have sources to get fishes from the overseas market at cheaper than the same pair would cost if available locally. as such, the price will never come down since the local shops that would bring the fish in cannot find the market to achieve economies of scale and be able to lower their prices. it's a chicken and egg situation really, and a small community that sources overseas is not sufficient to cause a ripple effect

[benetay]

I think nobody will reject paying a slight difference if we count in the airfare. It's much more expensive to fly there and get, if we can get it here locally. I'm sure hobbyist don't mind paying a little more for fishes like that. Problem is who will dare take such a risk?

Lets take an example, if a pair of similar quality apisto(lets take Yorky's recent addition as an example, Yorky hope you don't mind) is on the shelf of XYZ aquarium. A price tag of $350 who is willing to buy?

That said, so is there any idea or suggestion to improve such a problem? Instead of just talking about this and going round in circles. Any suggestion for improvement are welcome!

Cheers!

[theodore]

Just curious...

Say more of us are willing to shell out top dollar for a pair of rare Apisto which are, more often than not, caught instead of bred.

Then we happily put them in small tanks and snap dazzling photos for the world to see.

A small number of us may actually try to breed some of the beauties and a smaller number of us eventually succeed. However, few in our local community have a well-designed programme to cross out the pure lines we bred (assuming we get this far) and most lines succumb to deformities at some point and have to be abandoned totally.

Meanwhile, we give ourselves a pat on the back as we help improve the livelihood of 'catchers' by driving demand up (a little) and hasten some species demise (a little).

Then again, we can always get professionally bred Apistos from reputed 'German' breeders. I'm sure an increase in demand for well-bred fishes can help contribute to some European economies' GDP... And if some species are still overfished, at least we are not directly responsible for it.

So is this progression?

[Samuel2618]

i personally don't think there's any link with keeping the commonly available species with going round in circles.

likewise, i don't consider keeping expensive and rare apistos as a progression for the hobby.

I totally agreed to what Stormchild said.. Keeping commonly available species does not mean going round in circles..

To begin with.. There isn't much of other species available to begin with.. Those rare and so called wide caught ones are selling at quite a premium price.. It all depends on individuals whether they are willing to part with their money on these fishes..

I believe what Yorky said is true also.. Singaporeans can afford to buy such fishes even if they are at premium prices..However it is a matter to each and everyone whether he or she wants to spend such money just on these fishes.. It all voices down to preferences.. Like someone can spend a bomb on Hi-Fi systems where some others will think it's stupid.. Same story applied to these fishes.. Afterall keeping fishes is for all to enjoy.. So long as the keepers are happy.. Haha.. Why care about what so called "progression"?

Regards
Samuel

[mobile2007]

Actually i think the situation isn't as bad as what you all think. As we can see, more and more LFS are willing to put up common apisto species on their shelves and affordable than previous. As stock are readily available and price getting affordable, more people willing and have the chance to venture into this apisto.

What we can do over here, continue educate/help those newcomers to appreciate their new found hobbies. Local breeders can released their broods to the people regularly. Once enough number of people bulit up, the momentum will carried itself.