Going round in circles

[FishSoup]

i agree fully with theodore.

Ultimately, if the "progression" results in overfishing and the demise of wild populations, i'd much rather the "progression" not occur.

I think that if anything, captive-bred specimens (high quality ones, of course) should be where the money goes. This would create effects that are much healthier than the alternative of paying huge prices for "wild-caught" fish. Serious breeders will invest time and effort into breeding better quality fish without impacting the wild populations much, and this alone is much more valuable than money can buy.

Another way of ensuring the continual presence of a range of high quality apistos in the hobby would be to set up some kind of breeding/conservation program, similar to what killifish enthusiasts are doing the world over. Exchange of fish can be done to renew bloodlines and keep the gene pool diverse, hence maintaining hybrid vigour while minimalising negative impact on wild populations. Cost of the fish might also go down, together with the introduction of a new criteria to the ownership of rare apistos: namely reputation and the obligation to provide good care for them and breed them.

[jacian]

Bene, what kind of progression are you looking at? I do not see a problem with people keeping those common apisto, at least you can name 5 common apisto now. I remember years back, it is only A.caca and A.aga.

There is always trend in fish-keeping, it was once louhan craze, marine fish, betta, guppy, ranchu, shrimps or even stringrays. They just come and go. I am just happy see most of the people keeping these common one and only a handful of them venturing into the more rare and challenging one.

[illumnae]

the problem with hobbyist breeders is the problem of inbreeding. how many pairs of rare species do we see around? 1-2 pairs surface every now and then...assuming they breed and we have now 8-10 pairs...all the fish are going to be from the same source, and inbreeding is a very real problem in a very short time. because the bred offspring are available at cheaper prices, the people who aren't willing to pay a premium are going to buy those and breed those...and very soon we'll just have very inbred specimens.

those who are willing to pay a premium and bring in the uncommon species all have different preferences. so each person will bring in what they like, and we won't have sufficient numbers available to maintain a good line of those species. this, i think, is why it is very hard to see more than the common species around. it's because there are too many species and the taste of the small community of big spenders is too wide. the smaller spenders will end up buying the more common species, the more common species will still be brought in more and the gene pool diversified (after all, german viejitas for example will still sell and not just the farmbred inbred ones) and they will become more common without suffering the fate of inbreeding as drastically as the rare species.

i think in order to proliferate more species into the hobby, those willing to spend have to get together and bring in enough good quality specimens of just 1 species to keep and breed and proliferate, before moving on to the next. it's going to be hard/impossible because of the wide variation of taste around - what's beautiful to you may be ugly to me and while i may have a budget of $500-$600 for certain species i like, i won't pay $5 for another species that you're willing to spend $600 on.

[SCOPE]

i think progression is reaching higher steps in the same hobby.
i saw in house of apisto breeders from Taiwan or Germany, they don't keep so many species...they just keep on keeping & collecting a few particular species over & over again...

E.g. from a breeder, i saw him keep 6 different lines of apisto elizabethae...each diff line / var, he got 2 pairs each..
& he kept elizabethae line going over 10 years & during that 10 years, he keep on collecting & introducing new wild fishes or new lines into his collection....and he never get tired ove this fish.

he is not anxious on how to clear his extra fishes...but focus on how to get better 'red' or better 'metallic' for the next generations...

This is what i saw in some focus discus breeders in Singapore....instead of dying out or having inbred problems....he always can supply to the market...and better & better looking fish for each new batches..

[FishSoup]

The problem with inbreeding is a very real one, which is why there must be exchanges between separate bloodlines (within captivity) in order to maintain genetic diversity.

While this would require the initial buying of wild fish pairs, it will not be sustained, and thus will not be a long term effect that ultimately results in the obliteration of species from their natural habitats.

This kind of maintenence of bloodlines will require occasional new blood from wild populations, but if there are sufficient numbers of serious fanciers keeping the species and the crossing of bloodlines is done frequently enough, then any impact on wild populations will in all probability be slight.

Compared to wholesale catching of wild specimens and selling them at high prices, this is i think a feasible and in fact highly advantageous alternative.

If zoos and aquariums worldwide are doing it to preserve the survival of rare and endangered species,some of which number less than a hundred in the wild why can't groups of aquaculturalists do exchanges within themselves and maintain bloodlines?

[illumnae]

i think eugene has a good line of bitaeniatas from different localities going. in future i'm hoping to do what that breeder you saw do...keep different types of elizabethae or bitaeniatas as my 2nd choice

[stormhawk]

Bene,

I'd agree with what Stormchild and Samuel said earlier. What is essentially "wrong" in maintaining the commonly available species like cacatuoides and agassizii? People who keep these species are also Apistogramma keepers, just like yourself. While they may form the majority, they are also being practical in the monetary sense. Why take a risk on an uber expensive pair, only to see one or both fish perish under odd circumstances? Say the pair does not perish, but fails to successfully spawn time and again, what then?

It is entirely up to the individual to decide what species and what risks to take when it is their money in question. You are entitled to your opinion, but you have to understand that the final decision lies with the hobbyist.

Progression in the hobby is not measured by how many species an Apistogramma keeper has. It is measured by their dedication to the fish they are maintaining. You can have every single Apistogramma species currently present in the hobby, but you will eventually come full circle when your caca pair constantly spawns and your tucurui pair does nothing for weeks.

[yorky]

Progression in the hobby is not measured by how many species an Apistogramma keeper has. It is measured by their dedication to the fish they are maintaining. You can have every single Apistogramma species currently present in the hobby, but you will eventually come full circle when your caca pair constantly spawns and your tucurui pair does nothing for weeks.

I feel there is some good truth and fallacy at the same time in those statements.
Keeping different species and knowing how to keep them alive and well is progression in itself.
Spawning is a result of such a progression.
I'd personally kept many different species and seen many different species spawn.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I do not fuss over the brood.
Why?
Unless I can have many different lines of the same species, like what Scope mentioned, I do nothing with the fries.
With regards to the common species available, I am already starting to spot inbreeding deformities in them.
So is further inbreeding of deformed fish considered a progression or for that matter responsible?

The problem with inbreeding is a very real one, which is why there must be exchanges between separate bloodlines (within captivity) in order to maintain genetic diversity.

While this would require the initial buying of wild fish pairs, it will not be sustained, and thus will not be a long term effect that ultimately results in the obliteration of species from their natural habitats.

This kind of maintenence of bloodlines will require occasional new blood from wild populations, but if there are sufficient numbers of serious fanciers keeping the species and the crossing of bloodlines is done frequently enough, then any impact on wild populations will in all probability be slight.

Compared to wholesale catching of wild specimens and selling them at high prices, this is i think a feasible and in fact highly advantageous alternative.

If zoos and aquariums worldwide are doing it to preserve the survival of rare and endangered species,some of which number less than a hundred in the wild why can't groups of aquaculturalists do exchanges within themselves and maintain bloodlines?

Yes love the idea.. been trying to get this going but to no avail so far.
A forum like this is a good place to start such an activity because individually, our resources are limited.
I am recently involved in forming a brotherhood of 'Abacaxis' brothers.
Or for that matter, 'Miua' brothers, etc. etc..
But please, don't start swapping those 'inbred ones' as most likely they are all from the same breeding source although bought from different shops.

[genes]

My feeling, keeping a number of species itself can also be considered as a form of progression in the hobby. This is where you learn from experience. Different species may require different setup to maintain and breed them.

[FishSoup]

Yes love the idea.. been trying to get this going but to no avail so far.

I am recently involved in forming a brotherhood of 'Abacaxis' brothers.
Or for that matter, 'Miua' brothers, etc. etc..

i sense the beginning of a Singaporean Wilhelm!!!!

[stormhawk]

So is further inbreeding of deformed fish considered a progression or for that matter responsible?

A responsible breeder would know not to breed a deformed fish. Same goes with keeping a bloodline alive with regular infusions of fresh genes from unrelated fish, but originating from stock taken from a particular locality.

Let me ask you this Yorky. Say if all the agassizii Tefe originate from a single commercial import, does that not make all the fish in the hobby related somewhat? You might say no, but I would disagree. Unless you had multiple collections over a period of time, captive-bred fish from this locality pretty much share a similar genetic make-up. Over time if no new collections are made, or nobody bothers to share captive breeding stock amongst a number of breeders, the quality of the strain/population will deteriorate. Imagine a time when your bitaeniata "Tefe Bauana" start producing fish with bent spines and irregular finnage. I would shudder at that thought.

Of course I would agree with you that further inbreeding is definitely not a progression, nor is it responsible. But inbreeding itself has given us some strains you would normally not see in the wild. I guess the caca "Orange Flash" comes to mind? Pardon me if it occurs in the wild. It takes experience and skill to back-cross lines to keep the gene pool healthy in any captive bred specimens.

As you yourself have noted, there are deformities appearing in the more commonly seen species found for sale at the LFS. The increase in sneaker males, odd females with "male" finnage and pattern (the male-like caca female featured in one of the threads comes to mind) all show an indication that their source, which is probably a fish farm, is not doing the right thing in keeping their stock genetically diverse.

Perhaps it is their way of doing business, in which quantity pretty much outstrips quality. So any fry that make it to adulthood are almost always pushed out for sale. Then comes the issue of hormones to increase their colouration, or to speed up the growth of the fry.

When I do buy an apisto pair, I have a list of requirements, although I do not adhere to them strictly. I must admit, I have not kept as many species as some of you have, but in my time keeping them, at least I did manage to breed one or two.

My feeling, keeping a number of species itself can also be considered as a form of progression in the hobby. This is where you learn from experience. Different species may require different setup to maintain and breed them.

Well said Genes, but ultimately the home breeder is limited in this aspect as to how many tanks he/she can maintain, without coming into conflict with their given space or with family members. Good for those who can have multiple tanks without their gf/wife/bro/sis/grandpa/grandma/kids complaining about the ever rising number of tanks.

[yorky]

So when you buy those 'common apistos' from LFS, do you know where are they from?
With wild caught fishes, you have a pretty good chance whenever you get a pair, its probably not from the same parentage right?

Like you mentioned as a responsible breeder, what do you do after you have gotten 1 pair to breed? Say for instance your example of the Caca Orange Flash.
The difficulty is to obtain another pair from another source locally.

Oh and by the way, the deformities I am refering to are physical deformities not traits that I would consider attractive.
I am more than aware of inbreeding to give us interesting strains..
After all, it was the Caca Super Red that got me started into Apisto keeping!

[stormhawk]

I figure in the case of the orange flash, I can go about it in a number of ways. Like you said, if I got 1 pair to breed, these are my options:

First option, within my brood of fry, pick out the strongest to continue the line, get rid of the remainder. At the same time, buying a few other invididuals from other local breeders. Sure they might all be from the same source if ancestry is traced back, but by doing this I reduce the inbreeding risk slightly.

Second option, outcross and recross with triple red, double red individuals. The resulting fry may throw out a % of each strain possible from the pairing. But doing this strengthens the line a little. From here I can outcross the fry with the orange flash trait with individuals from another orange flash breeder.

Third option, well this depends on whether the funds permit. If I had enough $$ I'd probably consider shipping in 2-3 pairs of orange flash from an overseas source, and cross them into my current broodstock.

These are just the options I'd look into if I did get 1 pair of an orange flash to spawn, and to reduce the inbreeding risks. I figure others might have different methods. What I've mentioned so far is based on my time breeding dwarf hamsters. Same method applies to the orange flash.

That said, the triple red was one of the strains that got me attracted to Apistogramma. To be honest I'm having a hard time coming across a wonderful pair, especially where the triple red is concerned. Then again, my gf and myself intend to acquire a bitaeniata pair soon. So I guess the triple red might have to wait. With 1 tank to spare, I cannot do more than 1 species for the time being.

On the physical deformities you noticed, I found a few myself, looking at some pairs at C328:

1) crooked caudal peduncle
2) crooked/deformed jaw/mouth area
3) reduction in colouration
4) possible hybridisation (the "viejita" come to mind)

The last orange flash male I saw there had a crooked caudal peduncle, which was a major turn off..

I guess the farms don't really care about ruining their lines.

[Titus]

From a new hobbyist in apisto perspective, I do agree that the community locally is pretty small. But I am really glad to see all the local apisto keepers congregate mostly at Aquatic Quotient.

I guess progression is two fold: In Breath and Depth.

Breath in terms of different varieties of variants.

Depth in terms of quality in one of just a few variants.

For me, I would rather go for more depth then breath. And prehaps with enough depth in a few variants, we can get more people interested. From there, I guess the breath will start growing by itself.

[genes]

Well said Genes, but ultimately the home breeder is limited in this aspect as to how many tanks he/she can maintain, without coming into conflict with their given space or with family members. Good for those who can have multiple tanks without their gf/wife/bro/sis/grandpa/grandma/kids complaining about the ever rising number of tanks.

Err...i was referring solely to the comment that keeping a number of species is not considered as a progression in the hobby. Not about the number of tanks we can hold.

But yeah, you are right, alot of us, including myself are limited to the number of tanks we can hold. Anybody want to share a fish-farm?

[stormhawk]

genes, I figure that is what most of us would really want. A personal fish farm.

[wks]

I would like to see a real progression in apisto/fish keeping hobby in the following areas:

a) Setting up of an apistogramma club/ society just like our local discus club and betta club. Club activities should include workshops, news letters, informal gatherings to exchange ideas and fish, this will create awareness of the fish and attract more hobbyists as paying members. Holding annual fish competition is a sure good way to encourage serious breeders to hone their fish breeding skill and generate interests in new strains of apistogrammas.

b) Active participation in nature conservation or related programmes, be it national level or individual efforts. One good example is the collaboration between Mr. Loh aka Timebomb with his fellow members of killies.com and a NUS professor to identify the different aquatic mosses. We even managed to clear up the scientific name of java moss is not Vesicularia dubyana. This is in my opinion, a real milestone in our planted tank hobby.

[illumnae]

i fully support (a)!!

as for (b)...there's little we can do i feel

[FishSoup]

(a) seems feasible.

For (b) however, it would perhaps be possible to participate in research programs specific to singapore; research into apistogramma will probably not be attractive to professors/researchers in local universities.
Biodiversity research focus is mainly on organisms inhabiting the SE Asian tropics; deservedly so, as the SE asian Sunda shelf is one of the world's major repositories of biodiversity and there is so much more work to be done, considering how poorly understood and little-studied the region is.

i think the possibility of being involved in research of Betta species would be more possible, as they are indigenous to the region. Even then, it won't be easy; from where i stand, at least, NUS seems to favour research in genetic technology and biomedical sciences, with much less interest in biodiversity, taxonomy and related sciences. The moss people are lucky, as the prof in question (Prof. Benito Tan) is one of the world's leading authorities on mosses.