Advertisements
Aquatic Avenue Banner Tropica Shop Banner Fishy Business Banner
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: What is the base Fertiliser ?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    India
    Posts
    36
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    India

    What is the base Fertiliser ?

    Advertisements
    Fresh n Marine aQuarium Banner

    Advertise here

    Advertise here
    Hi everybody.

    I have been reading with interest your discussions on using the amount of base fertiliser of different manufacturers.
    I have a couple of questions - what is the base fertiliser made of ?
    I can see from your posts that all of you recommend using 2-3 cm of the stuff.
    My second question is - How long does the effectiveness of the base fertiliser last ?

    In my tanks I use Dupla Laterite. Roughly 1 kg of laterite is mixed with normal aquarium gravel and laid as the bottom 1/3 layer of the substrate in a 200 liter tank. You don't need to fertilise the substrate again if you use undergravel heating ( not for us in tropical countries ).
    In my case I don't have undergravel heating and I do need to start pushing Jobes sticks in after about 2 years of setting up the tank. Especially for the stems and echinodorus to do well. Water column dosing is a continuous process from day one.
    My experience is more or less in agreement with what George & Karla Booth mention regarding their experience.

    TIA

    Madan Subramanian
    Bangalore, India.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
    Posts
    9,210
    Feedback Score
    0
    Images
    371
    Country
    Singapore
    Hi Madan, we are just as curious of the content ourselves, but we got a wide variety of brands, german, taiwanese & some unknown ones from somewhere

    but some of our favour brands of base fertilizer includes, JBL Aquabasis, dennerle depoint mix, aquatic compost & etc

    we too use stuff like jobes sticks, root monster(ocean free), laterite balls from dennerle, jbl and other brands

    I guess the life span of base fert really depends on the (1)thickness (2)choice of plants (3)size of tank

    but I have heard some tanks going for as long as 8-9yrs without having to redo

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
    Posts
    8,958
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Images
    104
    Country
    Singapore
    Hi Madans,

    Actually, we usually recommend about an average of 2 to 3 INCHES of base fert. That comes from 1 to 1.5 inches in the front sloping up to 3 to 4 inches or more in the back. Depends on the choice of plants too. In a small tank, an average of 1 to 2 inches would be sufficient.

    Other then aquatic compost, I've only used JBL AquaBasis and Dennerle's Deponit (there is a Deponit-Mix which I've not used). AquaBasis is a fine clay soil. Deponit looks like normal but very fine potting soil. Base fert are usually enriched with some fertilisers.

    Normally, the base fert will last about 1 to 2 yrs, depending on plant choice and planting density.
    Vincent - AQ is for everyone, but not for 'u' and 'mi'.
    Why use punctuation? See what a difference it makes:
    A woman, without her man, is nothing.
    A woman: without her, man is nothing.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    India
    Posts
    36
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    India
    ----------------
    On 11/25/2002 9:48:50 AM

    Hi Madan, we are just as curious of the content ourselves, but we got a wide variety of brands, german, taiwanese & some unknown ones from somewhere

    ----------------
    I have been pondering about this too.
    One other question - do any of the nutrients leach out into the water column on set up?. Have any of you noticed a Nitrate, Nitrite, ammonia spike in a new setup?. I am refering to levels above the normal that you have as a new tank cycles. How about algae ?

    I have a problem with a tank that is more than 2 years old - My E.'Red Flame' which was putting out 10 cm wide x 20 cm long leaves now puts out 3 cm wide x 12 cm long leaves. It is showing improvement over the past 2-3 weeks when I have been dosing 1/4 teaspoon of lab grade KNO3 daily - yes daily. No algae issues yet.

    If other than Under gravel heating coils there is another remedy to keep plants going full blast for long periods 4-5 years - I sure would be interested. Dosing raw lab grade chemicals into the water column I want to replace with a better option. What - Fish food ?. I don't know.

    For my tanks I have rolled micro + macros into laterite clay balls ( The soil in Bangalore is laterite) but this only helps for a very short time.

    My newest experiment is Agricultural Grade vermiculite at the bottom of the substrate. This vermiculite apparently can sequester nutrients. Let me see how this turns out.

    Anybody on this forum considering any other options or already have them in place ?

    Madan Subramanian
    banaglore, India.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Bukit Panjang
    Posts
    1,433
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    Singapore
    I have been pondering about this too.
    One other question - do any of the nutrients leach out into the water column on set up?. Have any of you noticed a Nitrate, Nitrite, ammonia spike in a new setup?. I am refering to levels above the normal that you have as a new tank cycles. How about algae ?

    for my tank, I'm always lacking in my nitrates... or more specifically N. I'm trying to use a heavier fish load now to rectify this, but in th meantime I'm dosing with KNO3 as well. Even during initial cycle when I chucked 50 cardinals in at one go, I had no discernable NH3/NO2/NO3. Only algae prob I have now is spot algae

    I have a problem with a tank that is more than 2 years old - My E.'Red Flame' which was putting out 10 cm wide x 20 cm long leaves now puts out 3 cm wide x 12 cm long leaves. It is showing improvement over the past 2-3 weeks when I have been dosing 1/4 teaspoon of lab grade KNO3 daily - yes daily. No algae issues yet.

    just curious, how big is this tank? sound like its a deficientcy issue. Did you check you NO3 levels? Or are there small pinholes in your leaves which might indicate a potassium deficiency?

    My newest experiment is Agricultural Grade vermiculite at the bottom of the substrate. This vermiculite apparently can sequester nutrients. Let me see how this turns out.

    A few people here have tried vermiculite, and unfortunately the results aren't spectacular... plus its a mess when you try to rescape because the stuff floats all about
    Allen

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    India
    Posts
    36
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    India
    ----------------
    On 11/25/2002 11:31:33 AM


    just curious, how big is this tank? sound like its a deficientcy issue. Did you check you NO3 levels? Or are there small pinholes in your leaves which might indicate a potassium deficiency?

    ----------------
    This tank is 72 x 14 x 21(H) inches in size.
    There are no pinholes in the leaves. In fact not just the Red Flame but a whole lot of other plants too reduced in size over the last 6 months gradually. I could perk them up for a while by adding Jobes and / or my own rolled laterite balls.
    My nitrates used to be around 1-2 ppm and plants were doing great.
    I now have a lot of nitrate in my tank since I am adding 1/4 teaspoon daily and it seems to be perking up. My African lily leaves have grown real big again. My other echinodorus seem to be picking up. Stem plants have picked up growth.

    BTW water parameters - Kh - 9, Gh-9, pH-7.0
    PMDD dosed daily.
    Fe- 0.2 ppm.
    Pressurised CO2 injected into a Dupla reactor.
    Lights 4 x 70 Watts MH 6500 K for 10 hrs per day.
    Substrate - Bottom 1/3 River Gravel mixed with Dupla laterite.
    Rest plain river garvel - Total height of Substrate 4 inches throughout.

    Madan Subramanian
    Bangalore, India.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Bukit Panjang
    Posts
    1,433
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    Singapore
    Madans,

    From your reply you should be having high levels of nitrates by now. Assuming your 1/4 tsp of KNO2 is about 1.4g in weight, and your tank is roughly 350L then you are dosing roughly 2.4 ppm of NO3/day... thats a lot. and if your plants aren't consuming it, you could be in trouble. Maybe you should get a nitrate test kit and check your current levels.

    I suspect that your tank is lacking in Potassium, and as such maybe you can switch to potassium sulphate instead of potassium nitrate? That way you can cut down on your nitrate dosing. Alternatively you could try other potassium boosting fertilizer products like flourish potassium.
    Allen

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
    Posts
    8,958
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Images
    104
    Country
    Singapore
    Madans, your on APD, right? You should have seen recommendations for 5 to 10ppm of NO3 and 0.5 to 1ppm PO4 for planted tanks.
    Vincent - AQ is for everyone, but not for 'u' and 'mi'.
    Why use punctuation? See what a difference it makes:
    A woman, without her man, is nothing.
    A woman: without her, man is nothing.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    India
    Posts
    36
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    India
    ----------------
    On 11/25/2002 1:48:49 PM

    Madans,

    From your reply you should be having high levels of nitrates by now. Assuming your 1/4 tsp of KNO2 is about 1.4g in weight, and your tank is roughly 350L then you are dosing roughly 2.4 ppm of NO3/day... thats a lot. and if your plants aren't consuming it, you could be in trouble. Maybe you should get a nitrate test kit and check your current levels.

    I suspect that your tank is lacking in Potassium, and as such maybe you can switch to potassium sulphate instead of potassium nitrate? That way you can cut down on your nitrate dosing. Alternatively you could try other potassium boosting fertilizer products like flourish potassium.

    ----------------
    Well actually the 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 is about 0.7 gms. This is more or less consistent as my wife got me a set of plastic spoons from somewhere that can measure out 1/5, 1/4,1/2 3/4 and 1 teaspoon. I got this weight checked for KNO3, K2SO4 and KH2PO4 using a very accurate weighing scale ( Jewellers scale - my jeweller thought I was crazy but weighed it as I was buying a Diamond necklace for my mother then
    .
    My tank water content is about 280 ltrs. So the NO3 ppm has not increased by much.
    Flourish potassium is a luxury here - never seen it.

    Madan Subramanian
    Bangalore, India.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    India
    Posts
    36
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    India
    ----------------
    On 11/25/2002 1:55:47 PM

    Madans, your on APD, right? You should have seen recommendations for 5 to 10ppm of NO3 and 0.5 to 1ppm PO4 for planted tanks.
    ----------------
    I am on the APD. I have seen those recommendations.
    But the problem in my tank was that a tank doing well with 1-2 ppm nitrates progressively went down after about 18 months all other factors remaining the same.
    There are a few aquarists here in India who have Dupla undergravel heating cables installed and their tanks are doing well even after 3 years. They are not using any substrate fertilisers save for the Dupla laterite that they used while initially setting up the tank. They however do not have regular access to Dupla water column supplements and they go the PMDD, KNO3, K2SO4 route.
    Water column fertilisation is what the gurus on the APD vouch for.
    I am probing for any other experiences people here who either only lurk or don't subscribe to the APD might have with substrates.

    Madan Subramanian
    Banaglore, India.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
    Posts
    8,958
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Images
    104
    Country
    Singapore
    Madan,

    Cycling for a planted tank with base fert seems normal. You won't get unusual spikes in any of the N products as most of these base ferts contain very little to zero N and P products.

    For me, when the substrate fails, I'll supplment with root fertilisers and most of these indicate repeat fertilisation within 3 months to a year.

    You indicate that your plants do better when you start dosing KNO3... it's possible that the plants are responding to the addition of the K as well. Do you know your NO3 levels before dosing?

    ViNZ
    Vincent - AQ is for everyone, but not for 'u' and 'mi'.
    Why use punctuation? See what a difference it makes:
    A woman, without her man, is nothing.
    A woman: without her, man is nothing.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Bukit Panjang
    Posts
    1,433
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    Singapore
    ----------------
    On 11/25/2002 3:12:51 PM

    Well actually the 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 is about 0.7 gms. This is more or less consistent as my wife got me a set of plastic spoons from somewhere that can measure out 1/5, 1/4,1/2 3/4 and 1 teaspoon. I got this weight checked for KNO3, K2SO4 and KH2PO4 using a very accurate weighing scale ( Jewellers scale - my jeweller thought I was crazy but weighed it as I was buying a Diamond necklace for my mother then
    .
    My tank water content is about 280 ltrs. So the NO3 ppm has not increased by much.
    Flourish potassium is a luxury here - never seen it.

    Madan Subramanian
    Bangalore, India.
    ----------------
    Madans,

    I don't think 0.7g is 1/4 tsp... I remember reading it on the net and also just verified it again at Chuck Gadds Webby 1 tsp of KNO3 is 5.6g i.e. quarter tsp is 1.4g...

    If your tank water is only 280L, then you would be increasing your nitrate levels by 3ppm/dose. Plus given that you had a residual NO3 level of 1-2ppm before you started dosing, it would imply that your N is not being fully consumed initially. Of course it could be that the lack of K was stifling your plant growth and that the addition of KNO3 not only boosted your plant growth, but also increased the uptake of nitrates.
    Allen

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    India
    Posts
    36
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    India
    ----------------

    Madans,

    I don't think 0.7g is 1/4 tsp... I remember reading it on the net and also just verified it again at Chuck Gadds Webby 1 tsp of KNO3 is 5.6g i.e. quarter tsp is 1.4g...

    If your tank water is only 280L, then you would be increasing your nitrate levels by 3ppm/dose. Plus given that you had a residual NO3 level of 1-2ppm before you started dosing, it would imply that your N is not being fully consumed initially. Of course it could be that the lack of K was stifling your plant growth and that the addition of KNO3 not only boosted your plant growth, but also increased the uptake of nitrates.
    ----------------
    I will not disagree with you. Weight depends on the size of the teaspoon.
    I don't think anybody has standardised that !!!.
    I should not have mentioned "teaspoon" in my post when I did know the weight of KNO3 I was adding.
    There may have been a K deficiency, but where did this come about all of a sudden was what I was wondering. I did not see any recognisable symptoms like hole in the leaves etc.,.
    OR is this gradual reduction in size too a sign of K deficiency ?.

    Madan Subramanian
    Banaglore, India.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Bukit Panjang
    Posts
    1,433
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    Singapore
    Perhaps your substrate is not too rich in K? I'm not familiar with dupla's laterite substrates, but aside from being rich in iron, I'm not sure how rich it is in other minerals? Perhaps your subtrate is depleted of K?

    Maybe you could try using K2SO4 or stick some jobes sticks into your substrate around the plants which are doing poorly?
    Allen

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    India
    Posts
    36
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    India
    ----------------
    On 11/25/2002 9:58:53 PM

    Perhaps your substrate is not too rich in K? I'm not familiar with dupla's laterite substrates, but aside from being rich in iron, I'm not sure how rich it is in other minerals? Perhaps your subtrate is depleted of K?

    Maybe you could try using K2SO4 or stick some jobes sticks into your substrate around the plants which are doing poorly?
    ----------------
    Dupla laterite does not have K as far as I know. The laterite has a high CEC and that's about it, I am not sure the Fe in laterite is available to the plants.
    My K was being added through PMDD K2SO4 ingredient only until recently.
    Jobes sticks did help but this KNO3 into the water appears better.

    My oldest tank is about 2 years and it was kind of dying on me ( my other tanks were torn down before this due redecoration etc., at home ). Other than undergravel heating coils is there some other way to prolong the tank ?.
    I don't know how many of you have tanks running for long periods, so any input you can gather on extending the life of the substrate will help or else may have to tear down and redo the whole thing again - expensive.

    Maybe they didn't have so many easily available substrate supplements then and hence went the undergarvel heater route ?




    Madan Subramanian.
    Bangalore, India.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Singapore, Singapore, Singapore
    Posts
    8,958
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Images
    104
    Country
    Singapore
    Madan,

    What are you putting into your substrate now, other then Jobe sticks? Jobe sticks as far as I know only contains N, P and K. It can't provide the macros and micros that your plants need. You will still need to supplement it with your self-rolled laterite balls.

    Diana Walstad states in her book that plants prefer P from the substrate and N and K from the water column. That may be why your plants do better with KNO3.

    On a side note, having K in your water column definitely helps and does not cause problems except in extremely high levels.
    Vincent - AQ is for everyone, but not for 'u' and 'mi'.
    Why use punctuation? See what a difference it makes:
    A woman, without her man, is nothing.
    A woman: without her, man is nothing.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Bukit Panjang
    Posts
    1,433
    Feedback Score
    0
    Country
    Singapore
    ----------------
    On 11/25/2002 10:24:16 PM

    Dupla laterite does not have K as far as I know. The laterite has a high CEC and that's about it, I am not sure the Fe in laterite is available to the plants.
    My K was being added through PMDD K2SO4 ingredient only until recently.
    Jobes sticks did help but this KNO3 into the water appears better.

    My oldest tank is about 2 years and it was kind of dying on me ( my other tanks were torn down before this due redecoration etc., at home ). Other than undergravel heating coils is there some other way to prolong the tank ?.
    I don't know how many of you have tanks running for long periods, so any input you can gather on extending the life of the substrate will help or else may have to tear down and redo the whole thing again - expensive.
    ----------------
    I agree with what vinz said, its natural for your plants to prefer the KNO3 to jobes since they take most of the K through their leaves. This seems to infer even more that there is a K deficiency. In addition, you might like to supplement your substrate with other ferts... Off hand, JBLs 7-balls comes to mind.. supposedly quite complete. OR if you can't get good aquarium ferts you can go to your local plant nursury and buy some trace element ferts... You can try wrapping these ferts in a thin roll of paper (like newspaper), and then stuffing that into your substrate...

    As for the high CEC thingy, I believe that various studies where done and it found that a high CEC was not very helpful. One of the big push factors for vermiculite was a high CEC, however results showed that it did not help that much... I believe this info was found somewhere on the krib... though its been at least 2 years since I read that.
    Allen

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •