Dear Heiko: Please help identify these angels

**the_oracle** · 31st Jul 2008, 03:58

Dear Mr. Heiko,
After all the debates about the authenticity of Altums in SG, I would like to take this oppurtinity to ask you whether these are true Altums.....
Thanks in advance.........

Sanie.

**mickthefish** · 31st Jul 2008, 04:16

without Heiko i can tell you they are the true altum angel, there's no mistaking it.

mick

**the_oracle** · 31st Jul 2008, 10:26

Thanks, mick,
There are too many doubts in SG as to whether we are getting true Altums.....
And that is why I'm asking Mr. Heiko to give his input on this one....

Sanie.

**Panut** · 31st Jul 2008, 14:33

The bars, are they usually this light in colour?

**the_oracle** · 31st Jul 2008, 14:43

It depends on their mood........
At times, the bars are darker than this.........

Sanie.

**Panut** · 31st Jul 2008, 14:50

It is really beautiful if the bars are 100% dark and black all the time

Anyway, nice altums you have bro! Mind sharing the water parameters of this tank? and also its diet and requirements..

cheers!

**the_oracle** · 31st Jul 2008, 15:13

I have yet to get confirmations from Mr Heiko and also Apistomaster.......as to whether they are the ONE
As for water parameters, I'm the unorthodox type, that is, I don't really measure and gauge my water. I'm just using my experience to work things out......
The bigger one has already been with me for close to 2 years.......And the other 2 smaller ones have been with me for around 6 months.........
Once a fortnight WC regime and 25% top-up for my 4 footer community tank....They share the same home with my 6 Peruvians....
Diet wise, I feed them FBW and BH mix............twice daily
Using simple corner filter with wool..........

Sanie.

**raglan** · 31st Jul 2008, 18:32

These are Pterophyllum altum as we know them.
The controversy is actually about "lumping or splitting", taking only those from a certain locale as "true".

Virtually nobody in Venezuela would say that the other angelfish in the Orinoco system are not altum. Only Heiko maintains that they are not altum. I agree, until DNA comes in from Atabapo area and the other Orinoco locales, and even the Northwesterly Rio Negro watershed.

He has a valid point, in that the ORIGINAL locale specimens need to be DNA profiled, and ALL OTHERS must match. That does not mean they don't match, it just means that when the data is in, they must match.

There has been NO DNA inquiry properly done, and the soon-to-be released Pterophyllum study seems to have AGAIN missed out on getting ORIGINAL locale DNA.

My ongoing project is to get DNA barcode done. http://www.barcodinglife.org/views/login.php. take the tutorial !

The scientists are very exclusive and resent intrusion into their sloppy work. They study fish from the pet trade, or anyone who sends them fish. And they often do not bother to get DNA from original locale.
Fishbase, for instance, shows they catalogued only dead fish from pet trade for Pterophyllum leopoldi. Not one single fish from a documented locale in nature.

Heiko is being correct, in modern times, to insist on excluding all until they match DNA . Note that the Pterophyllum leopoldi don't even have a country listed, of course ! This is also the case in many occurrences of fish listed by scientists. No country, no river, no description of capture locale at all.
http://www.fishbase.org/museum/Occur...ecies=leopoldi

These fish, such as in the photo, ARE considered Pterophyllum altum.
Light colouring is relaxed and good.

Dave

**illumnae** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:19

it gets more and more confusing

so what are "true" altums and what aren't?

**hwchoy** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:24

welcome to the scientific world, where things change constantly with new discoveries and unearthing of new facts. however some times changes are due to opinion, or rather the differences of, and also ego.

**illumnae** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:31

i'm trying to decide between altums and heckels for my next project...i guess with all this confusion about altums vs scalares and the uncertainty of whether we are getting altums here in singapore or not, i should give them a miss in favour for heckels?

**raglan** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:34

A few items which point to altum, most likely.
Pronounced predorsal indentation ( "beak" look ) which increases with maturity.

"Inverted comma" on operculum sometimes visible. this feature is one which Heiko comments on as being predominantly a feature of non- Atabapo fish from the Orinoco. For now we call all Orinoco angelfish "altum". Scalare are said not to exist in the Orinoco, so if the other angels are not altum, then they must be a new species; they are not leopoldi !

Eye size: caudal peduncle width ratio is large compared to scalare, which have wider peduncle.

Relatively straight ventral fins, with curve at bottom, compared to rounded ventrals on many scalare.

Wide barring pattern.
Slightly wavy barring, compared to straighter bars on many scalare.

Eye barring extends upwards, but not much toward the rear of the fish, as scalare curves toward the dorsal fin

Much finer scales.

**Panut** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:34

Maybe we should end this discussion whereby:

If you really like the fish, why bother if its real altum or not? Unless you buy it because its an altum / scared people say its "fake" (there's no such thing as fake) / people buy so i buy.. etc etc...

Of course we can ask/inquire if the fish we are keeping is really an altum, but don't dwell too much into it.. Like the fish? keep it.. enjoy.. Don't like? Give it away to someone who appreciates it.. Or sell it away to someone who will give it a better home..

Originally Posted by illumnae

i'm trying to decide between altums and heckels for my next project...i guess with all this confusion about altums vs scalares and the uncertainty of whether we are getting altums here in singapore or not, i should give them a miss in favour for heckels?

As mentioned above.. you like the fish you see.. Buy.. Not because its an altum thats why i keep it...

just my humble opinion..

**illumnae** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:40

kenneth: that's your opinion, not mine. if it matters to me, it matters to me. if it doesn't matter to you, good for you, you can go keep it. you're in no position to judge my opinion.

Raglan: Thanks so much for the tips in identifying them

It's been quite confusing since Heiko ided the "altums" in another thread as scalares instead. I've been comparing the photos in that thread with altum pictures on finarama and I can't really see the difference

**Panut** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:44

Originally Posted by illumnae

kenneth: that's your opinion, not mine. if it matters to me, it matters to me. if it doesn't matter to you, good for you, you can go keep it. you're in no position to judge my opinion.

Hi illumnae.. don't get flustered, i was just giving my opinion, not judging your opinion.. Relax yeah?

In any case all the best for your project

**raglan** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:46

I see one fish in the back which looks different though. NOT altum

**raglan** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:50

could you link to that thread with Heiko reply, please ?

**hwchoy** · 31st Jul 2008, 23:51

it is a good thing you are trying understand the fishes you keep, their origins and natural histories. you are elevating in your hobby already. just remember natural sciences (unlike the hard physical sciences) are not always black and white, there are lots of grey and they can change over time. read more and pick which argument buys you over. even though you may not be trained in systematics and taxonomy, it does not mean you are incapable of understanding and making judgements.