Plants and Algae

[CK Yeo]

Ok, in case anyone is interested with the barley straw issue, here is the reference.

Everall NC, Lees DR, 1997, The Identification and Significance of Chemicals Released from Decomposing Barley Straw During Reservoir Algal Control, Wat. Res, Vol 31, No. 3, pp 614-620

there are others, but I lost them somewhere...[:]

ck

[hoppinghippo]

now for my constructive contribution.... errr I quite like barley... esp with lemon.... *blink blink* do you? <Himbo look> []

And budak you lucky marry mrs budak oredi, else the only poem you can tell her is:

Roses are red,
violets are blue,
Buy fish, buy tank,
No money to woo!

[chia2k]

hey guys just want to know , r algae here to stay ? cause it seems my SAE , oto and shrimps crew r running out of em . hee just asking

[loupgarou]

how the heck can we get barley straw in singapore . dupla= $ex

will other things work?

eg; lalang, dried corn leaves etc

[Allen_1971]

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On 12/19/2002 10:04:11 PM

how the heck can we get barley straw in singapore . dupla= $ex will other things work?
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Add one measure barley to 2 measures of straw... Voila! Barley Straw!!


Just joking... locally I think only dupla... unless some farms use it which I'm not aware of....

CK,

Thats pretty unusual reading material, now what did you say you did again irl?

As for the O2 stuff, as I mentioned before in an earlier reply, I'm doubtful that thats the mechanism by which plants inhibit algae. (Finally we agree on something![])

[DEA]

i am bloody lost []
but i agree with the gist of what ck is saying
healthy plants will net u better algal control than anything you can throw into the tank

[CK Yeo]

Wah! So much interest in the barley straw?
I think the paper did mention something about wheat straw also.. I go read that paper again...
Allen, if you want scientific evidence, this is the type of journals that you want to check out... Ecology of planted aquarium did a very good job of compiling evidence from scientific journals also...

ck

[Allen_1971]

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On 12/20/2002 8:12:17 AM

Ecology of planted aquarium did a very good job of compiling evidence from scientific journals also...
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Yes I agree... unfortunately time constraints often prevent me from reading up as much as I like. The book ecology of the planted aquarium is a great book, and lots of us on AQ have read it and quote it (almost like a bible!)... Though I wish there were more such volumes of compilations as the ecology of the planted aquarium (albeit good) presents only one view (D. Walstad's) and focuses a lot more on low tech setups.

Speaking of which, where did you get the previous journal you mentioned? Available in neighbourhood libraries? Or do I have to go to like NUS/NTU library to try?

[geoffrey]

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On 12/19/2002 7:42:52 PM

O2 is toxic? cannot say no but cannot say yes also. Dupla certainly thinks so. Amano also. Another complicated issue... For humans, it is the price to pay for being a oxygen utilizing organism; oxidative-damage. So a tank of happily bubbling algae will kill itself because there is too much oxygen?

The fact remains that we are far more successful getting rid of algae by ensuring plant grow healthy, not prevent algae growth at the expense of plant health.

ck
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That is probably my mistake all this while, trying to prevent algae growth at the expense of plant health.

Appreciate if someone could point me to somewhere where I could read more about the controversial issue of O2 in a planted tank, why its bad or good?

[Allen_1971]

Its been a activity filled week, and I haven't been poking about my tank for some time. As I was looking around my tank last night, and I noticed something interesting about green spot algae...

The front glass of my tank typically has little splotches of green spot algae... This I consider normal algae, and I usually scrape this off every 2 weeks. Anyway, Since I put e.tenellus in about 6 weeks ago, it has spread to the front of the glass... and the area which is sandwhiched by the tenellus and the glass has much more green spot buildup? (I did specifically clean the area in concern during the last cleaning)

I always assumed that green spot algae was assosiated with too much light... but this seems to contradict as the area between the ET and glass is probably dimmer (though not by much). Also I was wondering if the fact that the flow rate through that area being lower would affect green spot? Hmmmm....

[CK Yeo]

I read the paper again. They claim that it is good for cyanobacteria control.
They also say that Lignin is the most probable source of the phenolic phytotoxin. So, any plant material that is lignified is a good source of these anti-algae chemicals, but other alternatives are not studied yet. They say Oak leaves can be used also.
The paper briefly mentioned photolysis of straw decomposition chemicals (i.e. H2O2 production)... but brushed it off and favour the chemical toxicity as the mechanism for algae control.

Also, anyone found later papers?

ck

[vinz]

I wonder if ketapang leaves are a good source of lignin?

[Allen_1971]

Just did a quick read on lignin...

"Lignosulfonates can tie up metal ions, preventing them from reacting with other compounds and becoming insoluble. Metal ions sequestered with lignosulfonates stay dissolved in solution, keeping them available to plants and preventing scaly deposits in water systems. "

Interesting hor... mebbe thats how barley straw helps keep away algae... by producing lignin which helps in complexing the nutrients and making it more difficult to get.

Speaking of which, we did not consider the point that a lot of our nutrients come in a complexed form like iron EDTA... could it be that algae being a lower order plant cannot extract iron as efficiently as say a plant?

[hoppinghippo]

Just wondering, do the different types of algae ALL suffer when plants flourish? what about BBA which seemingly thrives when plants are healthy?

[vinz]

I've pondered this and my unproven guess is localisation. I.e. the algae grows on and near plants that are doing poorly.

Why are the plants weak when the other plants are doing fine? Some possibilities:
- sensitive plants in less then ideal conditions, like inappropriate temps, pH, light, etc.
- nutrient limitation due to short roots that are unable to reach the base fert, depleted base fert, anaerobic substrate, bad circulation, etc.

[loupgarou]

bba magnets.

its always these plants that get hit first.
hairgrass
tenellus
blyxa
glosso
marsilea
(anubias)

[Allen_1971]

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On 12/20/2002 2:17:33 PM

They say Oak leaves can be used also.
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I just remembered... Dennerle's Blackwater solution (TR7?) supposedly has oak extract does it not?

[vinz]

Peat and Oak Bark extract, I think. But it does claim to suppress algae growth.

[CK Yeo]

sorry.... didn't make clear that the phenolics which are PROBABLY derived from lignin by bacterial decomposition. They didn't go on to proof that this is true. Lignin is a structural component in secondary cell wall. Wood will have lots of lignin. Ketapang leaves have lots of tannins and humic acid. Vinz, go try lah. I was thinking of the hay used for rabbit bedding.... but that is if any one has a algae infested tank and is game enough to experiment.

Only divalent ions are chelated by EDTA.

ck

[vinz]

Well, in that case, why not try Ketapang bark extract? If we can brew some up, that is.