Reply With Quote
just a quick check. are the heckels kept in blackwater over at FH?
my tank pH is about neutral.
thks
Now's a good time to get them after FH has acclimitized them. I was too anxious and picked them up 2 days after the aircraft carrying them touched down and I had to do the acclimitization and take the risks myself
just a quick check. are the heckels kept in blackwater over at FH?
my tank pH is about neutral.
thks
Cheers,
Melvin Lim
According to Dave, he did put some blackwater when doing water changes. But I don't think he put much. Water still look pretty clear and normal color to me. So I don't think his PH is very low. I acclimatized mine over an hour or so last night and they seem ok so far.Originally Posted by mordrake
ok, thanks. will pay them a visit on fri
Cheers,
Melvin Lim
C328 heckels arriving soon....keep your eyes peeled
If only mods are paid
Arrgh! all this talk of heckels and wild discus are tempting me. must.. refrain.. from.. reading.. AQ.. threads..
AquaticRemainder
The larger heckels remaining in Fish Haven are really pretty stable already. Will react to people putting their hands in front of the tank. I bought some and put in tank, immediately start feeding on same day. Can grab!
yes, i got 4 smaller heckels on fri.
all heckels and greens looking mighty good.
started exploring and eating within a couple of hours... now itching to get more
Cheers,
Melvin Lim
If your tank allows, get more of the heckels. I find that they are much less skittish when in bigger group.yes, i got 4 smaller heckels on fri.
all heckels and greens looking mighty good.
started exploring and eating within a couple of hours... now itching to get more
Heckels have arrived at C328. Small sized ones. They are very stable. Larger sized ones are expected soon. Auntie rejected them today as they're not stable yet.
I also gotten 5 pcs of the smaller Heckel from Fish Haven last Saturday, very stable now. Will follow my finger when I put frozen blood worms into their tank - definitely worth buying. But left only 2 small ones when I left, the bigger ones looks good too.
Bro Illumnae - how are your heckels doing ?
Heard new stock is in at C328. I am going down to take a look tonight
I am really sorry for all the mis-understanding.
Perhaps I would like to retitle my thread to Wanted to find : Real wild Heckel Discus.
Apologise for all the WILD goose chase.
I think some still got he fishes they like, so no problem now.
What is real wild heckels and not real wild heckels? If you believe they come from a credible LFS/source they are real...
Heckels sighted at YunFeng aquarium at Tampines. Interested parties can go take a look.
Eugene (^_^)
De Dwergcichlide Fanatiek
Now swimming: Plecos and Apistogrammas
Thanks genes. You make a good start....
I have been through some other forums recently and also a few queries quotation from South America exporters. My points are :What is real wild heckels and not real wild heckels? If you believe they come from a credible LFS/source they are real...
Heckels sighted at YunFeng aquarium at Tampines. Interested parties can go take a look.
a) Indication of source is important for all aquarists. Beside the obvious point that they are expensive, isn't it is also important to let customers (they deserve to know don't we think) know the true source. That is good business ethics too.
b) Then we will know the actual amount of wild fishes that are actually exported for the trade. Now some aquarium hobbyists are also nature conservationist and it is good for them to know these fishes are not 'extracted' from wild, if that is the case.
c) Wild fishes and not wild fishes are different. We all know we need wild fishes to 'strengthen' the genes pool if we are to breed them and for many successive generations. Imagine many breeders got the same type and thus 'weaken' the strain in the long term.
d) I have got complaints! from UK importers recently during forum discussions that our discus exports to them are of poor quality due to in-breeding. That is BAD reputation for Singapore.
e) It is good to believe things are well but beliefs need facts to support.
regards
Orion
I believe that Heckels have not been bred on a commercial scale as of yet. Heiko Bleher, one of the leading authorities in the aquatic world has said previously that only a handful of people have managed to breed Heckels.
Hence, if you're saying that the Heckels that have recently arrived at our shores are bred/inbred fish, then you are probably saying that they are hybrids (Male Heckel x Female Other Discus has been done relatively easily). In such a case, hybrids are easily distinguishable from pur heckels, as they do tend to carry the characteristics of the female together with the distinctive heckel bar (I've seen a Turquoise with a heckel bar before).
Could you point us to why you believe the recently arrived heckels are hybrids, aside from your perception of their behaviour at the LFS? Any of the ones you saw possess the characteristics of other variants of discus (whether they be bred or wild characteristics)? If not, I respectfully have to say that you have no basis for your accusation that the fish recently arrived are not "Real" wild. Behaviour of fish, I submit, is hardly a conclusive yardstick to go by.
Finally, tagging of localities is even less of an indicator. Dishonesty can surface anywhere along the chain from the fisherman to the LFS. Aside from dishonesty, mistakes can be made as well. I have purchased wild apistos that were wrongly tagged before. Does that make them any less wild? Hardly so.
I'm really interested to know why you believe the recent heckel shipments aren't wild. As you have stated "It is good to believe things are well but beliefs need facts to support". Where are your facts?
a) There are already cases of aquarium hobbyists having success in breeding heckel discus and if you check through the website and forums you should be able to find many. This fish is not impossible to breed.
b) There are also hybrids of heckel discus available. Please refer to :
http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Art...lue_Discus.htm
Of course they did a lousy job but we can be sure they will get better can we?
Now lets get back to real business.
c) I recently got a quotation from South American Brazil exporter and quoted me US$800 for ‘a pair’ of wild heckel discus. That includes the packing, air freight, certifications, insurance etc. I didn't buy because 'I don't have the money.'
d )From your thread you mentioned they come in box of 50 and each cost $40 = $2,000. Now with the air-frieghts, packing , insurance and all costs that are expensive and they easily add up to $200US and that is even without the cost of the fishes from South America to Singapore. Minus off some causalities and mark-up from the wholesaler and then further mark-up from LFS I can say the margin is so low nobody will want to get into this business.
Of course you are still not convinced right?
Now If I tell you in Penang, Malaysia there is already a established farm breeder that has already successfully bred Heckel discus and that was already years ago… Perhaps is no longer a trade secret anymore.
Still not convinced, go to the website:
http://www.enchanteddiscus.com/mark.htm
Better still give them a call or visit their farm. I am sure they are not the only one around.
Of course I am open minded and I may be wrong and can any one convinced me that the discus are wild from South America when you can get them just literally ‘next door’ and at much lower price.
regards
Orion
I'm not trying to convince you they are wild from South America. I'm just asking for your proof that this particular batch is not wild as you allege
Back to the discussion at hand.
I've not disputed that heckels have been bred. In my previous post, I've mentioned that Heiko has said that a handful of people have managed to breed heckels. However, what I did say is that it's not been done on a known commercial scale. While it's good to speculate on conspiracy theories of hidden farms breeding heckels by the thousands, do we have any empirical evidence of it? I would be happy to stand corrected if you are able to point me to conclusive pictures showing a heckel breeding farm.
For the first link you've posted, I do believe I did say hybrids were easily achievable. However, the offspring of such hybrids are just as easily recognizable. Like you've said, they've done a lousy job of replicating the orginal heckel look in the hybrids. However, you have said that we can be sure they will get better...do we have any evidence that they have gotten better?
Next, I didn't say that there were 50 heckels to a box72 pieces of heckels came in 4 boxes for that shipment. I have also heard from a reliable source that the LFS did indeed price the heckels ridiculously low. Basically what I was told before the fish even touched down in Singapore was "if it's below $50, quickly buy!" When I informed my source that it was $40, there was a look of stunned disbelief. Hence, I do agree with you that in this case, the margin was very low. However, I do know that my source was very certain of the cost price of the heckels, and they weren't cheap farm prices. I also know that the importer for that batch is Qian Hu. I do not believe that a large listed company like Qian Hu would commit fraud by faking the point of origin of their shipments. Or are you saying that the breeders ship to S. America before getting them shipped out again?
Your link to the Malaysianfarm is interesting. While unsubstantiated claims are sketchy at best, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt as I do know that many discus breeders hail from our northern neighbours. What raises a red flag in my mind is that in that same article, the author claims that Mark Tan saw his father create the Royal Blue and Green discus. We all know that strains such as RGD etc are created...but to say that the Royal Blue and Green discus are created when in fact they are naturally occuring wild fish makes me suspect the authenticity of all the other claims in this article.
I am just as open minded and of course I can be wrong. With lack of empirical evidence, I am of course unable to convince you that the fish from the last 2 batches are definitively wild. However, I would really like to see hard evidence of why you accuse these 2 batches of being bred. I would also like to see where 'next door' they can be gotten at a much lower price. if possible, could you perhaps arrange for a trip to a farm that has breeding pairs of heckels? I'm sure there are a few people at least willing to join you on this trip just to see this in action. I will certainly try and make it
on a side note, this discussion is very thought provoking and interesting, perhaps we could request for a mod to split it into the cichlids subforum so we can continue our discussion there and hopefully get more cichlid/discus experts contributing their knowledge?
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks