Heckel discus

[raymond]

Yes its true that they become brave with more "friends" in the tank. Now tank population is 4, sometimes come out sometimes they have the mad rush and then stay in the corner for 2-3 days. Haizzz....

[illumnae]

add more if possible, 4 is too little for them to feel secure

[illumnae]

On another note, I've done some surfing around, and it seems that the recent batch of heckels imported and sold at FH/C328 are heckels from Rio Marimari, also known as Heckel "Marimari" Red. This is for those interested in the locality/type of heckels you have. The reason I think they're this locality is the distinctive red band at the dorsal/anal fins area not found in most of the heckels from Rio Negro/Rio Airao.

http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/Diskuswildf%E4nge/Seiten/Heckel_Mari%20Mari.htm

Mine looks like the first picture

[raymond]

Oh are you sure? my still look dull, haha. but its all yellow when it has calm down. hopefully my will have the same colour as teh Marimari red. which is pretty beautiful. Thanks for the info bro.

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi Guys,

this is Heiko Bleher and I saw this thread now and wanted to say a couple of things:
1. PLEASE do never mix Heckel discus with hybrids or tank breed variants - far from the orginal wild stock. Your Heckel discus will hardly ever feel comfortable andalso the infection danger is very high... You can read my Lessons for Wild Discus on www.discuspassion.net

2. Those "Heckel discus" shown on Amazon Exotics from 2006 are NOT real heckel discus, those shown from the Marimari are natural hybrids of S. discus x S. haraldi (Heckel discus x Blue discus).Unfortunately the owner of this business dioes not want to read, or recognize my book, which really everyone keeping, wanting to keep wilds should (everyone says "must") have. I just can advice to do so.

Merry Christmas and a healthy and happy new year, to all of you and take care of your Heckel discus

always

Heiko
www.aquapress-bleher.com

[illumnae]

I'm curious to know why you make your other assertion about the heckels, much like how you said reebok's altums are not real altums. Are you able to back up your assertions with facts? Or do you just claim your book is the only authority on wild discus and leave it as that?

edit: I've done some research and found that the Rio Marimari is located in or near the Rio Madeira river system. In this river system, hybrids of Heckels and Blues do exist. However, from the description and pictures I've found, neither fits the picture that I linked in the previous post. Here's some pictures and descriptions for reference:

http://www.geocities.jp/acaradisco55/Ev/e-cont2jpg.htm

http://www.aquatechnics.net/wilddiscus.htm - For this link, scroll down to the Heckel discus section. The last paragraph of the description and the bottom right picture are describing/showing the Heckel cross.

As with all Heckel hybrids that I've seen (both wild hybrids and aquarium strain hybrids), the descriptions and pictures of the Heckel Cross from the Rio Madeira river system show predominently features of the non-heckel parent, but with the heckel bar. My personal observation is also that the heckel bar seems thinner in the hybrids than the solid bars shown in pure heckels.

The first picture in the previous post, however, shows a predominently heckel fish with the only striking feature being the red in the fins. If you scroll down, others caught in the same batch do not exhibit the red in the fins except the 2nd last picture, which has a trace of it. Furthermore, the fish are showing the white/pale blue of heckels and not the bold/shiny blue of blues. The only fish that may look like a hybrid is the 3rd one. However, I do note that the first and last pictures are the only ones that show the solid bar. The others do seem a little on the thin side.

What I believe is that Heiko may be right in saying that the marimari river does have some heckel cross in it. That may explain the large variance found in the fish caught from that locality. However, I don't think a broad brush approach is appropriate in this case, as there are some heckels in that batch (notably the last picture) that looks like a standard Rio Negro heckel.

My prognosis is that this particular river is the "melting pot" area where the Heckel crosses and pure heckels mix. Thus, both variants have been fished out from there. This seems consistent given that the Rio Negro ends quite near where the Rio Madeira starts.

I'm trying to be as objective as possible here, despite my obvious dislike for Heiko and my recent distrust for his methods and assertions.

Anyone else able to throw some light on this?

Edit2: http://www.traveljournals.net/explor..._marimari.html - Map showing where the Rio marimari is

[illumnae]

On another note, hybrid or not, these discus are lovely. I like the combination of the yellow based body, thick heckel bar and red fins! On further thought, I do actually hope that they're hybrids and not real heckels, so that I can possibly have them breed in my tanks, since heckel hybrids are easier to breed than pure heckels!

And at least it debunks Orion's false assertion that these are farmbred heckels and not wild heckels. Heiko Bleher himself says that they're naturally occurring wild discus hybrids

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

incredible, what has my comment (which is my comment) to do with racist? Unbelievable! Are you also a word-twister???
I am probably the least racist person on this planet - and have always been. You should not twist the words or read only what you want to read – the facts is what one should read. And I ONLY write facts.

And by pointing out what I have said: those are FACTS (and nothing to do with racist AT ALL). The fact is that these "Heckel discus" shown are hybrids. It has been proved genetically (publication from August 1st, 2007 in aqua International journal of Ichthyology volume 12(4)). And I do never say that my book is the ultimate or anyone has to read it, I just said (and always say) "I wish". As it took me almost 50 years of practical experience in nature and in aquaria and more than 300 field trips to discus habitats and Amazonia to compile it. And much more. (Your "friend" has not done one single one...). And I am with that, a "life-time-work" passing on my practical experience - nothing else. That is why I wish that people who keep wilds would read it. Thousends have thanked me and changed their way of keeping and taking care of wilds (you can see it on thousands of websites and hundreds of conferences I did hold...).

But you know, I really do not care if people don't, it is their own cup of tea. And you know also:I do not need this garbage from you and I do not need at all to write here. If you do not take this false accusation away,I will never come back to this forum, I do not need it.

Heiko Bleher

[illumnae]

For the sake of peace on the forum and a constructive discussion, i've edited away my more challenging remarks and replaced it with some google research that I've done Thanks for pointing out the genetic research done, it's greatly appreciated. I'm really glad that I have found out more about the fish that I now keep, as it's never nice not knowing where the wild fish you own came from.

However, until you retract the statement you made on the other forum, I will not back down from my stand that you are either severely misinformed or downright racist. As you can see from this forum alone, more than "a few, if any" people from asia have ever seen a wild discus. That means what you wrote isn't fact right? Please retract that statement and I will gladly apologise to you.

Edit: For those who are curious, here's what Heiko said: "99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus"

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi,

if you want to can retract/change it to "99% of Asian people cannot distinguish a Heckel discus from a blue discus very well, most of them have never seen a wild natural Heckel discus. The majority only know the so called Heckel-cross and misidentify these hybrids (and also the sometimes imported natural hybrids of S. haraldi x S. discus) with the real species of Symphysodon discus (=Heckel discus).

I hope you can live with that, as it is the fact.
best regards

Heiko Bleher

PS: And I noted before: Asian for me is those people in Asia - except Japan - that handle/keep/sell/trade/breed discus

[illumnae]

I don't wish to argue with you in public anymore and see you embarrass yourself any further with your obviously fallacious statements that you assert as facts. I'll leave it as things are and let people draw their own conclusions

Back to the discussion about heckels

[raglan]

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...rm=iso&tlng=en

[raymond]

Hi all, i started this topic just to ask around and hope everyone can share their experience on wild discus. Hope things dont get too heated up here, as i believe everyone has a place in their heart for this beautiful fish. Comment are meant for self improvement, and not for assualting each other. IMO, i believe its some misunderstanding of words between both parties which leads to this. lets share our experience and not comment on unnecessary stuff here. Hope you guys will settle your difference and share your experience to all be in novice, beginners or experience people, as i believe everyone can learn from each other.

Cheers.
Raymond

[vinz]

Hi all,

I can see why Heiko's original comment (quoted below) could have been taken to be racist.

99% of all Asian do not even know what a Heckel discus looks like and very few, if any have ever seen a wild discus

However, I think he has clarified (quoted below) what he really meant:

99% of Asian people cannot distinguish a Heckel discus from a blue discus very well, most of them have never seen a wild natural Heckel discus. The majority only know the so called Heckel-cross and misidentify these hybrids (and also the sometimes imported natural hybrids of S. haraldi x S. discus) with the real species of Symphysodon discus (=Heckel discus).

I want to point out there are quite a few people in this forum who do not speak/write English well, and may not put across their point quite correctly. Which can lead to misunderstanding. It would be good to give some benefit of doubt and ask for clarification.

I think it is also good to question establish knowledge or facts, simply for the idea that sometimes facts can be wrong, in light of new discoveries, information, etc. Even experts face challenges as well. However, we should be ready to accept that our challenges could, in turn, be re-buffed soundly.

On another note, a forum is a collection of individuals, with the purpose of bringing together different people with similar interests. However, the sole opinion or actions of one or a few members does not represent the opinion of the entire forum. If members leave because of one individual, then the larger community has lost.

The personal aspect of the disagreement between Heiko and Illumnae is between them and AQ will not interfere except to ask that they take their personal disagreements out of public and keep the discussion on-topic. Offense was made and the offended has registered their indignance. Now, please resolve it in private if you must.

I remind ALL members to refrain from personal attacks.

Finally, what has transgressed is openly presented in this thread and all readers can draw their own conclusions about the disagreement and the members involved.

Now, let's all get back to talking about fish!

[vinz]

Several replies were made after my reply above that discuss the finer points of language and the misunderstanding it may cause. I have moved these posts to another thread and also copied the earlier posts to that thread to maintain a sense of continuity.

From this point on, if you wish to contribute to the discussion about the importance of language and writing carefully, please go to Importance of Language and Writing Carefully.

This thread is closed. To continue discussion about Heckel Discus, please go to the new thread.