Wanted to find discus : Heckel discus

[Orion]

Help is needed here.

Anyone see this beautiful fish that has 3 bold vertical lines - across eye, caudal fin and centre of body.

I called this fish Gentleman of Cichlids.

But buying them at 50$ each makes no sense to me.....

[sheng]

Hope this help :
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum...ad.php?t=46822

FISH HAVEN AQUATIC TRADING
Block 38 Telok Blangah Rise, #01-339, Singapore 090038

Tel: 9857 7711
Hours: Mon-Sat: 1030am-8pm Sun/PH: 1030am-6pm

[Orion]

Thank you.

Just hope people throw away this type of cichlids like they throw away louhans into local drains. (Past experience and education is required to keep them)

Price = same same.

[illumnae]

why are you hoping people throw away this fish into drains?

[Orion]

Well it's is just a subtle poke to those reckless people throwing away fishes.

Anyway no one will want to throw away money, but I did see alot of people throw away fishes once they got worn out and take the easy solution.

Oop... I mean I will take shelter for all of them. This fish is not one of the easier type to keep and see many people buy them....

[mordrake]

nope. I find wild discus no more demanding than domestics. In fact, i find them tougher.

[Orion]

You have any secrets for that...

Wild discus - very shy , frighten easily, easy to look sulky colour, feeding also not easy, water must be good constant etc..

perhaps you want to share with us your experience

[illumnae]

are you speaking from experience about the upkeep of wild discus or are you just spouting? I tend to agree with mordrake. Anyhow, your whole "throwing into drains" line of posts is wholly irrelevant and mildly offensive. Why are you associating heckel owners with drain dumping fish keepers?

[Orion]

are you speaking from experience about the upkeep of wild discus? I tend to agree with mordrake.

Just so you know, in case you have not surmised from the link sheng gave you, I've recently obtained heckel discus

Yes I know you have obtained heckel discus after sheng listed your link to the thread. I also believe you are experienced keeper. I was referring to newcomers to this discus hobby.

I personally kept both wild heckel discus and the 'hybrid' ones before. I think hybrid ones are often the easier ones to keep. (with the exception of newer fancy 'weaker' strain).

In fish business, the discus farmers will often select stronger individuals (selective breeding) that has high rate of survival to boost survival rate.
They have also been in human induced conditions since birth and fed with foods later artificailly mixed with vitamins and anti-biotics and the water chemistry more match ours. Feeding is never a problem with dry food.

Whereas for the wild ones, aside from the stress of shipping and packing, to acclimatise them is itself a feat. Water tolerance from nature differs and we don't really know what water chemistry is there. (localised). They are also used to natural habitats and generally very shy if placed in tank glasses that they see unfamiliar surroundings. Also they are quiet fish and don't like people movement and also imagine the changing of water weekly.

BTW I saw the heckel fishes are quite stunted when I approach them? Tired?
Wild fishes will frantically dashing when human comes near.

What is your experience..

[Orion]

are you speaking from experience about the upkeep of wild discus or are you just spouting? I tend to agree with mordrake. Anyhow, your whole "throwing into drains" line of posts is wholly irrelevant and mildly offensive. Why are you associating heckel owners with drain dumping fish keepers?

I apologise for the throwing fishes to the drain part.

AVA is now educating people about the right mentality of keeping pets. It is a reality in Singapore.

[khtee]

I apologise for the throwing fishes to the drain part.

AVA is now educating people about the right mentality of keeping pets. It is a reality in Singapore.

I have never seem any of this act before. So let's move on.

[illumnae]

I doubt you can judge whether a fish is wild or not by the way it reacts to you. You must remember that these wild fish aren't freshly caught and immediately shipped to Singapore and thereafter immediately displayed. There's a quarantine period at the source, and another quarantine period at the supplier before arriving at the store. For this particular batch, there was no quarantine at the supplier side, but came directly to the store after arriving at supplier side. However, I do believe from fisherman to storage/quarantine to shipping/handling over to Singapore side, the fish have had ample time to acclimitize to humans being around them.

Further, when was it that you visited Fish Haven to view these fish? I went to see them 1 day after their arrival at Fish Haven and they were rather skittish, especially when I was trying to net them out. If that's your only measure of whether a fish is wild or not, then I can tell you that they were as skittish as you desired them to be upon arrival. However, cichlids being smart fishes, learn quickly where their source of food comes from, and that is the man/woman in front of their tank. I can also tell you that today when I went, the same fish were responding very differently to my presence in front of the tank. When I put my hand in front of the tank, they congregated there expecting to be fed. Does this mean that Fish Haven did a miracle swap and substituted wild fish for bred fish? I hardly think so.

The same goes for the leopoldi angelfish which you commented on in another thread. My altums beg me for food now, having been in my tank for a couple of months...and they have been doing so since they have learnt that I'm their foodgiver. I have even observed that when I was feeding them solely dried foods and my maid was feeding them bloodworms (they're fed multiple times a day), they learn to beg my maid for food instead of me. The reverse is true when I swap the types of food fed. This recognition takes less than 3 days to take effect. Does this mean my altums are not wild? I have Linke strain fish? Cannot be, because they displayed the skittish behaviour in the LFS before learning!

There are other signs to look out for aside from fish behaviour when looking at wild fish. It's not foolproof, but it's much more reliable than merely looking at how the fish behaves when you happen to see them at the store. From my observations 1 day after the fish arrived, from my limited experience with keeping wild fish and from what I have seen on the web of how wild heckels and hybrid heckels look like, I conclude that these are wild heckels.

I'm presuming you're the guy whom the Fish Haven auntie told me about. She was laughing and telling me about this one guy who came by and insisted that her heckels were farm bred hybrids and not pure heckels

edit: Further and aside from their behaviour in the store, this particular batch of heckels isn't acclimitizing as easily to their quarantine tank as my bred discus did. They are taking their time getting used to their environment, despite my best efforts at creating a tank as close to their natural habitat as possible (based on Heiko's own advice in another forum) and they do not take to dried foods yet. They are shy and always hiding unless people aren't around (I know this because I observe them from afar after coming home). It will take a few weeks, but I know they will soon come to get used to their surroundings, start to eat dried foods and come beg me for food when they see me. When this eventually happens, does this mean they didn't originate from the wild back in November 2008?

[Orion]

Agreed. That is not a accurate and only way of coming to a conclusion. It only plays a small part to the constitution of all evidence. The critical missing link is to get the Delivery Order from the wholesaler that originated from South America. Then we can do a simple mathematical calculation of the shipping date, packing, acclimatization. If only they are helpful to clarify all doubts. (can always censored the business sensitive info in the D.O.)
But then again, we become not fish hobbyist but detective already.

All wild animals when stressed and skittish tends to refuse to feed in normal circumstances. They will have to be slowly nursed and slowly eat a little gradually. If that animal suddenly change from that to another in 180 degree. I will tend to agree that these fish is the latter state which we see now. Doesn’t that raise a bit of doubt?

Seriously I don’t know this one as I never see your fishes and their behaviour.
I will just say that important is you enjoy the hobby.

Well if only the real experts come in to give advice
Darn!

I raised a bit of doubt and people can get really defensive.
If I have genuine stuff and people get skeptical, bet I will prove it to them logically and with proof. But people just laughing aloud to brush off the issue doesn’t really help right?
BTW I am not the one.
I don’t want to get ‘hacked’ for disrupting business especially this period of time.

[Orion]

I have never seem any of this act before. So let's move on.

Come on. You don't see doesn't mean it don't happen. Even man's best loyal friend get abandoned, doesn't that tell us something.

I agree on the latter part.

[illumnae]

people aren't getting defensive because you raise a doubt. I certainly have not doubted the fact that the heckels from Fish Haven are wild, before or after your posts. Rather, your "arguments" don't even raise a shadow of a doubt and thus people respond logially to your baseless accusations both in this thread and the angelfish one

[Orion]

people aren't getting defensive because you raise a doubt. I certainly have not doubted the fact that the heckels from Fish Haven are wild, before or after your posts. Rather, your "arguments" don't even raise a shadow of a doubt and thus people respond logially to your baseless accusations both in this thread and the angelfish one

Now defensive refer to the aunty in the LFS not anybody else. (I am still nor wiser about the 'wild fish' after the discussion with her)

Keep an open mind. Perhaps you want to tell us your belief(based on what points, facts) in the fishes are wild. Beliefs required facts to support.

I have written a lot in this thread , maybe can discussed them point by point. That we may learn something.

[Orion]

people aren't getting defensive because you raise a doubt. I certainly have not doubted the fact that the heckels from Fish Haven are wild, before or after your posts. Rather, your "arguments" don't even raise a shadow of a doubt and thus people respond logially to your baseless accusations both in this thread and the angelfish one

BTW I did not accuse that the fishes are fakes and not wild. I am just raising some questions and real expert opinions is very deeply appreciated.

[mordrake]

no secrets for me. Be patient and research on fish and its requirements. Take note of tank cycling and emphasize on biofiltration. Then take care to avoid stressing fish like adding
incompatible tankmates. And lastly, good husbandry.
On topic of wilds. Fish itself should not look too perfect, ie nice fins, full stomach and all. Suppliers will not quarantine n feed the wilds that well/much. Note some come from piranha infested waters. Had a heckel years back that had a bite mark on the dorsal fin.
Wilds have very distinct black rims on their dorsal and anal fins.
These 2 points are just very amateurish ways of guessing the authencity of the wilds.
Lastly and most impt is get from reputable lfs/lff. Layman like us can only put our trust in them.
Wild discus not too bad. Wild apistos much more contentious.
Not sure, not convinced or not comfortable? Don't buy.

[illumnae]

great summary mordrake

I agree fully with you about apistos...a contentious batch is incoming soon

[genes]

...a contentious batch is incoming soon

I thought this comment is rather uncalled for...