Good grief Jennifer! I thought you had already read up on culturing these worms!Originally Posted by jkillis
Hi Ron,
I'd received your culture on Friday. Thanks.
Emmm... The box in there looks dry. I saw some worms moving around on the cover. Ron, sorry for being "culture illiterate", what must I do to grow the culture with those stuff you send to me?
IIRC (if I recall correct), the parcel included some sachets of oatmeal and a bag of coir/cocopeat.
There's a brief guide at Kwek Leong's site or you can also try here. You can use the more effective cocopeat to replace Vermiculite/old peat combo for the worm media.
Some quick notes;
1. Soak the cocopeat for an approx an hour, then drain excess water.
2. Spread a layer of the wet cocopeat into a container that has a ventilated cover, to prevent fruit flies from contaminating the culture.
The grindals you received came in this container...
The grindals are sandwiched between a damp bottom media (so that the worms don't dry out) and a dry upper spaghnum moss, to allow some air-space (so they don't suffocate and die!).
3. Remove the dry spaghnum moss and toss the whole damp media onto the freshly wetted cocopeat. If there're worms crawling on the container wall, use a gentle spray of water to flush it onto the cocopeat.
If the worms have crawled onto the spaghnum moss, soak the moss briefly, shake it in the water and try to retrieve the worms with a eye-dropper and return them to new bedding.
4. The worms need time to adjust themselves but they still need to eat. During this time of 'adjustment', don't overfeed. Add about 2 flakes of the oatmeal ON TOP of the media and dampen it. Feed again when food is consumed.
5. Before you keep the grindal box in a cool dark place (like under your fish stand), make sure that the cocopeat is not flooded with water or too dry. The surface of the cocopeat should glisten slightly.
Let me know if I haven't answered all your doubts.
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Jennifer, I forgot to add this pic...
This is one of two grindal cultures I sent to Debra in the 2nd shipment. She's living further away and I wanted to experiment a little with different ways of packing the worms.
This is how your worms look like before I laid the dry spaghnum moss over them.
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Hip..Hip... HURRAY!!!!!
Ron,
I received the cultures today.Oh, there was same wiggling going on in the bigger dish.
Will let you know what happens in a week.
Thanks, Ron!!
Oh, yes, the children were still excited to see if the worms were alive.My husband and I catered a farmer's auction today,when we came home they flew out the door with " Mom, you got a package from Mr. Ronnie Lee again!Here open it". A knife was supplied and all heads poured over the box.
Deb Bear
AKA#08746
SAA#175
Same here too, Deb!Hip..Hip... HURRAY!!!!!
Ok... you should have 2 cultures with 'sandwiched' grindals;
One is damp, but with a ventilated bottom container + dry spaghnum on top. Another bottom container is there to make sure the grindals don't crawl out of the holes.
Second is dry cocopeat bottom + spaghnum. It should feel pretty dry but let's see if the worms survive the trip without much moisture.
In both cases, spaghnum is used to allow some air space and also to prevent the media from being tossed around.
I suppose no one went "pphhheeeeww!!" this time and you weren't left alone."Here open it". A knife was supplied and all heads poured over the box.
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Oooh,No need to wait a week for a report
I can not begin to tell how exciting that this morning has been!! When I checked the bowls there were worms wiggling in BOTH bowls.
In the larger bowl , the grindals had eaten all flakes of oatmeal.In the smaller bowl, that was dry,are little grindals under the few flakes I had put in.
Ron wrote > Did the kids manage to find the worms?<
Yes, They did! I had to shoo them back some so I could see what was in there myself.Nothing like fighting over a box of worms
Deb Bear
AKA#08746
SAA#175
Thanks Ronnie. My worms are growing each day. I can't wait to see the whole container full of worms.
Jennifer Ooi
Living in Pearl of Orient
Jennifer and Debra,
I'm very pleased with the results you girls are getting. Keep up with the maintenance and may your box be full of worms!
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Ronnie,
I'm thinking of breeding Grindal instead of microworm as M. worm is about the same size as Vinegar eels. I also understand that m. worm need to re-start every few weeks, it would be cheaper for keep vinegar eels instead.
Please spare me some of your grindal worm.
PS. Your M.worm are doing ok but I think it's more economical to keep vinegar eels for emergency use and Grindal worm for feeding fry.
Ronnie, i'm experiencing a less than enthusiastic reproductive rate in the grindal culture that i have. i think i read somewhere that pH plays a role in the propagation of grindals. haven't measured the pH of the bedding but i see a whole lot of dark black-brownish "soft" areas in a circle around the centre of the culture.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
KC, there's no such thing as the perfect tiny worm. Vinegar eels swims all over but will gather in the upper reaches of the water, while microworms sink. Each serves it's own purpose and dependent on what frys you're trying to feed.
VEs are good for surface and mid-water feeders like Pseudepiplatys annulatus, epiplatys and panchax species. Their mouths are designed to grab that fallen insect and will only occasionally forage the tank's floor for food.
MWs will be good for very young aphyosemion fry, and even badis fry, which usually stay very close to the tank's bottom. It's only much later that the fry will feed near the surface.
While MWs will last about 2 months before a re-sub, VEs lasts much longer but somewhat inconvenient to harvest (I'll touch on that later in a new thread... Vinegar Eel 'Harvester'). Both will work if your fry tray has about an inch of water.
That's a safe way of doing things but try not to feed GWs to frys under 5mm since the average GW is about 2~4mm. A 1cm fry will have no problems tho.PS. Your M.worm are doing ok but I think it's more economical to keep vinegar eels for emergency use and Grindal worm for feeding fry.
Let's arrange via email for GW collection.
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Hi KC, I'm "upping" yet another thread, since my GWC are doing well and can afford to spare.
Some folks are dropping by this Saturday at 4pm and if you can make it, show up and you get your 'door prize' :wink:
I'm extending this goodwill to fellow-forumers a 2nd time, which may be my last, since I'll be going full swing in nurturing my own so I can wean my killies off tubifex... ie. until I can culture tubies too!
As perviously mentioned, there's a catch and it still applies... (now it's your turn to go find what I've said! :wink: )
Let me know who's interested in GWCs, so that I can prepare enough.
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Greetings to you all from a new subscriber !
I came here as a result of Kwek Leongs recent post on the PlantsList (APD) list about mosses.
This is a most interesting forum and I thank you all for some very interesting readings.
In particular I would like to thank Ron and others for these GrindalWorm posts.
I have been keeping/growing Whiteworm and Microworm for many many years ( more years than I care to remember !) with great sucess,,,but sadly I have never had much sucess with Grindal neither with soil, soil-less fibre nor with artificial (filter-floss) methods ( altough of the three the last method has been marginally better )
Your recent writings have inspired me to review my methods, especially with respect to air supply !
More reports about that later when I see how it goes,
meanwhile, keep up the good works and
thanks,
Malcolm,
in SW England.
Dear Malcolm,
Let me extend a personal welcome to the forum and I'm happy to know that it's an enjoyable visit for you.
The synthetic-media method was the result of chasing down and waiting patiently for RJ to perfect his method, which took course over 3 years! What you see is a 'photo essay' of sorts, so that anyone anywhere can do it by referring to the pics... yes, even if they don't understand English.
Like yourself, I wasn't pleased with what meagre grindal worms I could harvest but thanks to RJ, I'm now a very happy fella and have converted all my conventional-media cultures to synthetic.
If something can work on paper, from the USA to Singapore, there's no reason you can't do it.
Debbie and another USA member are experimenting, along with a small local group of live-food advocates, and the results are encouraging.
In case you missed some of the pages, please click on the links; Introductory article, 1st Update and Current Status. BTW, you ought to know that the method was originally intended for whiteworms, but it works great for grindals as well!
When we share, good things happen! Let me know how you're getting on too, ya?
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Yes, I had seen those pages as well, most interesting, thanks.
A little more background from me :-
I had been trying to grow the grindal in a few dozen small (9cm) and large (15cm) Petri dishes. The theory was that each day I could remove a dish from the top of the heap, harvest the worms, then I would replace the dish at the bottom of the heap, by the time it then took for it to reach the top again it would be ready for another harvest.
That was the theory !
But having read your infos it seems probable that the close fitting lids have not been allowing enough (any!) air.in, and also, being shallow containers, there is little void space as well.
I had been thinking of the grindal as being similar to microworm which I have always kept in containes with close fitting lids. ( Usually ex margerine tubs from the kitchen department.) If, instead, I now treat them more like my whiteworm cultures (much bigger boxes with air space and ventilation) I hope I may get better results.
Thanks for all your ideas. Yes,I'll let you know how it goes.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and wet :-)
Malcolm
Malcolm, I've done that before... but that' the problem with theories... sometimes it doesn't work! Also, small cultures tend to crash more often and quite suddenly (just as a larger aquarium is often more stable and with less fluctuations).
From there, I went on to somewhat larger containers and still, I made no provisions for ventilation and that forced me to open the lids daily for air.
I soon tire from that mundane chore and thought about allowing air in, but disallowing visitors, like fruitflies!
Things improved a little after I completed my vermiculture and even that was based on ideas from the kind people at KillieTalk. If you're into vermi-composting, it might be worth a read (Warning! Twisted humor ahead!)
BINGO! You got that right! It's AIR! Low gas transfer=low oxygen=worms dying=culture crashing.But having read your infos it seems probable that the close fitting lids have not been allowing enough (any!) air.in, and also, being shallow containers, there is little void space as well.
I still have one of those old cultures using snap on lid for grindals cultured on a different sponge. It's a pathetic looking thing and wonder why I still keep it! It smells, there's no production to speak of and I have to open it daily.I had been thinking of the grindal as being similar to microworm which I have always kept in containes with close fitting lids. ( Usually ex margerine tubs from the kitchen department.)
Looking back, I was on my own and as I've said in those pages, I didn't understand a whole lot of what's going on. That pathetic culture will serve to remind me why I'm sharing this with you too.
I'm sure you will. If I had the same low temp from where you are, I'll probably attempt whiteworms too. They're way bigger than grindals and better suited for larger adult fishes. Only problem is... to culture one, I'll need to keep it in a fridge, which isn't my domain... but that's another story! :wink:If, instead, I now treat them more like my whiteworm cultures (much bigger boxes with air space and ventilation) I hope I may get better results.
You're welcomed. Just share the information and experience with those around you... that way, everyone benefits.Thanks for all your ideas. Yes,I'll let you know how it goes.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and wet :-)
Remember this, it only takes a spark to get the fire going...
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Ron,
Just a update on my cultures.I have two synthetic cultures growing. I am slowly going to get rid of the dirt ones. With the first synthetic culture, I tried to use filter floss as a way to keep the friut flys out. But they managed to wiggle in.The coffee filter taped on over the air holes is working so far.
Off subject....
Ron, you are not the only one on here that is paranoid!. In our area in two days time 72,000 chickens have been killed because of the Avian flu. We are very nervous hoping that we do not get it!We have 18,000 hens with 1,000 roasters on the farm here.
Deb Bear
AKA#08746
SAA#175
Deb, don't be too quick to discard the old cultures, just store them elsewhere, lest Murphy's Law strikes unannounced.
I hit a glitch when I overlooked a very old peat/soil culture that was infested with spider mites, and in turn, did a number on my synthetic ones.
Made me wished I didn't procrastinated in getting a finer 'ventilation barrier'. Those damned bugs went right through the floss and teabags!*
After the usual "flood & torch" routine, worm reproduction was affected and I've a colorful collection of Hairy, Slimey and Moe (sounds like the characters from 'God Father', but I'm talking about fungus & mold
How is your coffee filter holding up?
*I'm gonna look for those water resistant and breathable bandaid (without the medicated pads). That ought to let the darn thing breathe and fine enough to prevent another infestation... unless those bugs sneak in from another gap!
Worst case scenario... I'll restart from scratch!
... only if it doesn't affect the supply of daphnia & tubifex but if confirmed that Malaysia is on the list, then it's very relevant (as in killies' food!).Off subject....
According to the Malaysian Public Health Dept, there isn't an outbreak... yet (as on Feb 13th 2004). I'll be checking for their updates.
In one of their online papers, People's Daily headlined, "Malaysia has no cases of bird flu: health minister"... that "The Malaysian health minister said on Jan. 27 that Malaysia has so far no reports of avian influenza, the H5N1 virus known as bird flu, either among poultry or humans." Let's hope it remains so!
Inevitably, there'll be those amongst us who will be wondering... why is Ronnie so excited over this bird flu?
Simple, should Avian Flu be confirmed, then supply of daphnia and tubifex will temporary cease, as these are harvested from the run-off of these farms, thus no collection=no fish food! (I'm willing to stand corrected if the facts prove otherwise)
Second, I raise a pair of miniature chicken at home... (enuff said! :wink: )
Hope it turns out ok for you and your feathered friends. 19,000 is still alot of incinerated birds!
<getting off the podium before someone clubs me with a chicken drum-stick!!
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Debra, you mean roosters, don't you?
I did a quick calculation - In your farm, there are 18 hens for every rooster. Hmm, I wouldn't mind being a rooster if I can have so many hens
But seriously, I hope the avian flu doesn't reach your farm. I read in the news today that there's another outbreak in the US of A at Lancaster County farm. I hope that's not anywhere near you.
My late parents were pig farmers when they settled in Singapore many years ago. And I remember the stories my mother used to tell about swine fever and how financially disastrous it can be when there's an outbreak. I don't know if chicken farmers do such things but my late mother said she will slaughter the pigs the moment they show signs of disease. A sick pig slaughtered when it's still living is still worth some money whereas one that dies of disease would be a total loss.
Loh K L
Thanks,Loh K L, for that correction!Debra, you mean roosters, don't you?
If one has that many hens they can become veryHmm, I wouldn't mind being a rooster if I can have so many hens
Lancaster County is about 3 hrs from us,but there is a farm in Sussex County that has it, that is only 15 miles down the road!We are disinfecting all vehicles,shoes and hands. We do have one thing to be thankful for is that it is not the same flu that is over your way. We have the H2 type.It only affects the chickens and not humans
Now back to the subject
Ron, I put three coffee filters togather and used packing tape around the edges to hold it on the lid for a tight seal.I hope that keeps the mites out.I believe it will the fruit flys,for I use them for the rinsing of BBS and they don't go through.I still am not sure of the mites for those buggers are really small!!I hate them more then the fruit flys.
Deb Bear
AKA#08746
SAA#175
Greetings from Canada.
I have read with great interest the use of the synthetic media for culturing the grindal worms. My soil cultured grindal worms are problematic, and the containers get infested with mites and other critters. During the winter months, my fishroom is quite cool -- perhaps 68 F (20 C) and production really slows down. During the summer, it is approximately 70-72 F (21-22 F) and they produce better.
My soil cultured white worms thrive under these conditions, but I think I would like to try the synthetic method with them as well. It look to be a much cleaner way to grow worms!
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