well i've got a bit to add on. to Mr Loh, i believe that no matter how frivolous a question may seem, its still a question and as a seasoned aquarist, one should and try his/her best to answer the questions. you must understand that beginners always have a fear of things.
as a beginner in killies myself, i must state my reasons as to why i didn't get the australe eggs. i did intend to but i decided not to because i feel i won't have the time on my hands to tend to the fry everyday. i'm still in the army and this particular month of December, i've got a pretty packed schedule. thats why i decided not to get the eggs because i wouldn't want to see the fry die while they're in my care. but that doesn't mean i won't get my own eggs. in fact i plan to obtain eggs by myself next year, when i'm not too busy with my workload.
there are many reasons why beginners would give a pass on fry and eggs. thats because they're afraid of massive die-offs, be it from the fry or the eggs. and the very reason stems from the fact that they're beginners. like Sia Meng said, "i learnt from the school of hard knocks", thats pretty true but it can be rather disheartening for a beginner to see their first fry die on them or seeing their eggs not hatching. this can pretty much kill their passion for killies in the first place.
on a personal note, i remembered asking Sia Meng what he feeds his killies at home because i was planning to get the Simp. auratus and his answer was, IIRC - "all killies eat the same things". thats not very helpful to me. dietary needs may differ between killie species and by knowing the diet of the killies from the breeder himself, i, as a buyer will know what to feed them without having to worry about them starving due to the lack of the correct foods.
some people may feel that killies sold at LFS are not as valuable or as pure as those with a collection code or a geographical name attached to their scientific names. but i believe that every fish is equal, be they hybrids or pure-breds. what may seem as a worthless fish may look like a valuable fish to others. like they say, one man's meat is another man's poison. in fact, it has been stated on Tim Addis's site on West African Killies, that the crossing of two populations of the ANN have resulted in a much stronger fish. aquarium strains have their pros and cons too and we cannot possibly satisfy everyone's needs, be it professional keepers, purists or the run-by-the-mill customer at the LFS. in my view, as a killie enthusiast, one should treat all killies the same, regardless of whether they're pure strains, aquarium strains or hybrids. the fish are not at fault, we are.
as a breeder, Sia Meng should by all means go all out to propagate his fish. but he should not have judged people on their intentions. i mean, everyone here has a right to own the fish, even if they intend to "sapu" everything, if thats what Sia Meng thinks. a single pair may not be enough and some people tend to buy more pairs in the hope that IF one pair dies, there's another pair to carry on the line. and even then, with several pairs, one can maintain the population's genetic diversity without having to deal with severe inbreeding problems. one should think out of the box rather than to think within the box.
and yes, he did mention that some people kept viewing the fish several times and he thinks the fish got pretty stressed. well for starters, take a look at any LFS and u can see people gawking at fish tanks before they start taking a net and catching the fish. everyone will look for the best looking fish and if it entails the viewing of the containers or tanks several times, then they'll do it, even if the fish get stressed. try asking the bettas in the plastic containers at most shops whether they're stressed. cost is also a factor to consider for most buyers, especially those with lesser cash to spare. a fish priced at $50 may seem pretty steep to those who may not have realised the rarity or the value of the fish. i for one would hesitate to think for a moment before i plonk down my cash for a one-shot $50 purchase, be they killies or other fish. in fact, i considered for a long time before i ended up buying a $35 corydoras.
lastly, i agree with Ronnie's motto that its "for hobbyists, by hobbyists". the reason why i didn't get any killies from any LFS is because i believe that home breeders will produce better quality killies as they've put in the time and effort to raise these guys to maturity and eventually for sale. therefore i believe that the pricing is pretty much justified, even if i feel its a bit too expensive. and yes, i do agree that asking for discounts, even tiny ones are really unnerving to a person who has devoted his time and effort to raising these fish.
just my views, no offence intended whatsoever. :wink:
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
just another point to add, i believe that almost everyone of us has a group of australes at home, with the exception of myself, who is planning to but have not yet obtained any. the chocolate, orange and gold strains are pretty much considered as aquarium strains to me but i see no wrong in keeping an aquarium strain, even if they're not a pure strain. in fact, i believe that keeping aquarium strains are part and parcel of the killie experience. :wink:
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Jianyang,
You made some very good points, most of which I'm in agreement with. But we are drifting "out of topic". I would like to address the question of preserving collection codes for our fish and all but let's leave that for another topic. In this thread, I would just like to address the question whether we should treat commercial breeders differently.
I'm all for the motto suggested by Ronnie, "For hobbyists, By hobbyists". But I'm concerned that some people here seem to be taking a "holier than thou" stance. A hobbyist is not in any way holier than a commercial breeder, that's my point. Many of us like to see ourselves as hobbyists because unlike commercial breeders, it gives us the feeling that we aren't in it for the money. Fair enough. If you love the fish and like to keep and breed them, that's perfectly alright with everyone. But please do not see commercial breeders in a different light. They may be doing it for the money but many, if not all of them would have started off as hobbyists too. I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to try and make some money from selling his fish or eggs for a profit. Without them, the hobby would be less interesting for all of us.
The way I see it - The difference between a hobbyist and a commercial breeder is like how sportsmen were viewed by the public many years ago. In the old days, there were amateurs and professionals. Professionals were seen in a lesser light because unlike amateurs, they were seen as people who were doing it for the money. So professionals were banned from participating in many major sports events, including the Olympics. And eventually, that gave rise to a new breed of sportsmen, known as Shamateurs, people who were training full-time. Many of them were from communist countries. They live and die by the sport but they were never classified as professionals for the absurd reason that they supposedly had other jobs, like carpenters or drivers. It was obviously a big sham, a farce.
Nowadays, people don't make a distinction between an amateur and a professional anymore. I think the same should apply to this hobby too.
If you keep many species of killies and you are actively buying, selling and trading your eggs with breeders from other nations and you call yourself a hobbyist, what is the factor that makes you different from a commercial breeder? Is it because you think you are more helpful? Is it because you sometimes give your fish and eggs away for free? Or is it because you believe you are more willing to share your knowledge?
None of these would make you any different from many commercial breeders who are just as willing to share their expereinces and give away their fish for free. Tony Teiceira would be someone who's a commercial breeder in every sense of the word as he sells his fish through his web site. Same goes for William Shennefelt. But these 2 gentlemen gave me my first few batches of killifish eggs for free and refused to accept payment even when I offered it. Both Tony and William are always there on KillieTalk Digest sharing their experiences.
So before you take on a holier than "commercial breeder" attitude, I would ask you to do some soul-searching and ask yourself truthfully whether you should be considered a commercial breeder or a hobbyist. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, whichever one you are, it makes no difference to me as long as you help promote the hobby.
Loh K L
As a beginner to attend the gathering, besides meeting all the forum members in the gathering, I will also hope to get the fish and plants which I am always hoping to get. And I was fortunate to get all of them.
From my personal point of view, gathering is not the same as commerical sale. Gathering is for experience hobbyist to exchange experience with each other and also give advices to beginner likes me. It is also a meeting section for hobbyist to buy / exchange fish or plant which they don't have. It is not possible or difficult for hobbyist to bring a large quantity of killies of the same species to the gathering and I would said 5 to 6 pairs is a fair number. Everyone should entitle to buy one or two pair unless that fish is under demand. If someone really wanted to buy killies in large quantity, I would suggested him to get it from those hobbyists who keep a large variety of killies directly. Darren Lum was once my platoon mate so I hope that he do not mind what I had said.
Stormhawk wrote:
I agreed on your points but the gathering is for people to finally own the fish they always wanted. But if eveyone buy more than one pair of killies during gathering to widthen their safety net, there will not be sufficient fish to satisfy all the people. Most of the fishes that was sold during the gathering are not rare in Singapore so if the fish die and need more fish to reduce inbreed problem, they can alway approach the breeder. I am sure that the breeder will be very happy to help also.IF one pair dies, there's another pair to carry on the line. and even then, with several pairs, one can maintain the population's genetic diversity without having to deal with severe inbreeding problems
Finally, all the above is just my personal view, I hope no one is offended. If yes, please accept my apology.
Regards,
Ong Poh San
When I was first exposed to killifish, I also have some reservations. I keep asking myself should I start on eggs or should I start with adult fish. After some findings done on the new, I realize that the chances for me to buy killifish from overseas is almost impossible. After some thought and with my past experiences on breeding aquatic fishes, I finally settled down with starting on eggs. So I can understand why most of the prefer to get the adult fish rather then on the young fry and eggs. The process for them to start with eggs and fry to get the next generation started is longer and higher risk involve. If I have the luxury to get a breeding pair locally, I’ll more willing to pay for it rather than to start from eggs.
That’s why on the gathering, most of the hobbyists prefer to get the adult pair rather than on the young fish if they can afford.
As for other beginners, we’ll tend to tell them exactly what we feed to our fish. As this maybe the first time they’re keeping fishes. What Sia Meng and myself perceive you as an experience breeder based on the post you’ve posted in the past. If you scan through the past posts, you’ll realize that this topic had already being bought discussed before. All killifish prefer live food rather than dried food. When we take about live food for adult fish, what do you think we’re referring to? Beside tubifex, bloodworms and brine shrimps and an added bonus if you have grindal worms.Originally Posted by stormhawk
I respect your own point of view for treating all killifish alike be it an aquarium strain or pure breed. Here we’re saying that we should take the trouble to maintain all collection code of the fish as possible. There are about 700 species of killifish recorded and new species are being discovered yearly. Isn’t that more than enough to sustain the killifish hobby! New hobbyists that just joined the hobby may not know why we take the trouble to maintain the collection code. In fact most fish are facing the threat of extinction! Their habitat had being destroyed for development.
If Sia Meng is not committed to propagate his fish and pass it around here, I doubt you would have a chance to see so many killifish on the gathering. Just imagine if one come all the way hoping to get a pair of fish to start off, and realize that someone had grab all the fish from the particular specie who would one feel. I come to the gathering with 2 main objectives. First is to meet up with fellow hobbyists and exchange ideas and to provide an avenue for hobbyists to get the fish. That’s why I try to bring a few pairs each to be distributed on that day and I’m also prepared to bring all the left over fishes back with me. We would discourage the same person to grab all the fish from the same specie. With always think it’s better to spread the fish around to serve as a safety net here and if one person couldn’t succeed, we still have the other to rely on.
For your info, during our eve of the gathering, we did have our discussion and I mentioned clearly that we’ll have 2 very rare fish on display. Our intention is to let you guys to have a chance to see the real fish during the gathering. We don’t intend to sell them at all! But on second thought we have to take care of the interest of the shop owner who let us use the place to conduct the gathering. That’s why we tagged a price to the fish hoping no one will buy them and we can bring it back after the gathering.
I sincerely hope that we have a clear mind that this is a very new hobby here and there’re bound to have teething problems during the initial stage. I’m not siding anyone nor targeting at anyone. I may have quoted some statements that Stormhawk have posted, but do not take it too personal as I just using it as an example. We’re all here to get the hobbyists kick off and create a better awareness for hobbyists that there are such rare fish exist. Our primary goal is to spread the hobby here with the right path and attitude. So if there is a difference in our secondary goal be it you’re a ‘pure’ hobbyist nor with ‘commercial’ interest it should not make any difference. The fact of this unique hobby we can’t deny is that there’s always an exchange of eggs and fish or sale of excess eggs and fish to get the fund for obtaining new species is part and puzzle of killifish breeding. So how you ‘term’ the person (with commercial interest or pure hobbyist) is not important. After all it’s the passion we all have for the fish
Au SL
I never like to interfere with incidents like this nor write long posts but this time despite my poor English, I want to speak my mind. The purpose of the gathering was to have a get- together and some fun, because we often wonder how this or that fellow looks like behind his or her machine. Personally, I have always thought that the forum has brought us closer in a circle and a meet-up would definitely strengthen the bonds of our friendship. I guess I was wrong with what I first thought.
Sia Meng, you can never make everyone happy. Every one of us knew that in this gathering, there are going to be sales of fishes and eggs and as the forum is open to the public, non-members are able to know about the on-going events. For those with commercial interests, they would be delighted that there is such sales going on and they will not miss the opportunity to grab some species. Even without the gathering, I believe they will still have other sources to get the species they want. Pardon me for saying so, the amount they paid was quite reasonable.
Your interest in selling your fishes will be successful only when there are willing buyers. When someone wants to buy all your fishes at your requested price, I do not see why you should be so upset over this as there is a saying that goes “The early bird catches the worms, or while stocks last”, so whoever steps forward to pay, the sale is closed. Sounds like aunties buying fishes in the market but would anyone spend money buying something that is not to their interests? The way they see it and how we look at it would be very different.
What you do not understand is there are people who may have deliberately waited until the end of the day so that they might get what they want at lower prices. Even though I did not witness the transaction of the sales that night, I did noticed that all those fishes up for sale were placed on the table and wasn’t it on a “first come, first serve” basis or were there special arrangements made that upset you? I wanted that pair or trio on the counter too but was told someone already reserved it, so you see I was disappointed too but I thought nothing about it because if there was anyone to be blamed, it was me because I was late.
I think you are being impulsive about withdrawing yourself from the forum. Just some setbacks and you are quick about leaving. You are still very young and you react differently but I hope you will give it a second thought. I suddenly realized, to have this forum run smoothly is not easy because if everyone choose to leave on every little setback, not only will the problems remain unsolved, there won’t be any progress too. I remember a Chinese proverb that goes like: “Failure is the mother of all success” so as Loh’s good friend, the more you should not quit. The point is, you cannot please everyone on such occasions. At the end of the day, some will frown and some will smile. From what I saw, the sales were good and I did not detect any sense of dissatisfaction or unhappiness during the gathering.
Perhaps some valuable feedback from those who were utterly disappointed about the gathering will help improve on the organizing. Without any feedback, we will never know what went wrong. Well, if this one did not work out well, the next will definitely be better. I am very sure of it!
Sorry for being so long winded. It won’t happen again, I hope.
Lily Choo
I think it's a good sign that we can have different opinions on a subject matter and we are willing to argue about it but we do so in a civil manner. Many of you expressed reservations that your opinions may be offensive to others. Frankly, I don't think you should worry too much about that so long as what you wrote is not a personal attack on anyone.
Poh San came up with a good point when he suggested that in future gatherings, we should restrict buyers to one or 2 pairs of killies. We will take note of this and see if such a rule is beneficial to everyone. It may sound like a perfectly good rule now but it can happen that if there's only one person interested in a particular species, it would be ridiculous if we restrict him to 2 pairs when he's willing to take all pairs available.
Au thinks it's unimportant if a person is a pure hobbyist or a commercial breeder and what counts is his passion for the fish. My sentiments exactly. We shouldn't make distinctions as the line separating a keen hobbyist from a commercial breeder is a very fine one. If you ask me, I think some of us has already crossed this line but as Au said, it's not a big deal.
Lily thinks that Sia Meng is being impulsive to withdraw from the forum. Frankly, I think so too. Sia Meng has always been a valuable member of this forum and my close friend. But he's young and I know he gets upset easily. There's no reason why he should leave just because I said I was disapointed by what he wrote. I wasn't disappointed with him but only with the sentence he wrote where he said that in future gatherings, the seller has the right to reverse his sales. That would, in effect, be making a rule. I would say, if you want to make some new rules, you should at least check with those doing the organising first.
There were contingency plans made on the eve of the gathering that should too many buyers want to buy the same fish, the fish would be put through an auction. There were never any rules on a "first come, first served" basis because if we had such a rule, a riot may break out when people rush to be the first in line. I wasn't aware that there was so much interest in the $50 pair of Simp. that Au brought or else I would have put that pair through an auction.
In future gatherings, more fish will be sold through auctions. I think there's nothing fairer than to let an auction determine the fish's true market value. But it will be on a request basis. In other words, if you are selling your fish and you think they are quite rare, you can request that your fish be sold through an auction. You decide your own base price and the one doing the auctioning will help you get the best price for your fish. It is very likely that there will be more hobbyists selling fish in the next gathering because many here now have eggs or fry that are not common.
Jianyang spoke on behalf of all beginners when he wrote that they have reservations about buying eggs or fry. I think what we need is to educate them more on how to raise fry and hatch eggs. Ronnie brought many eyed-up eggs and healthy fry and it was such a pity the beginners didn't buy them.
I wrote that many of the newbie questions were frivolous because being someone who knows how heartbreaking it is to end up with eggs that don't hatch, I find it hard to understand why people are afraid to buy healthy fry. I'm old and impatient. When you're old, you don't have time to be patient.
To conclude, I would appeal to you all to help me persuade Sia Meng to change his mind and come back to this forum. He doesn't realise how serious it can be but being one of the regulars here, by declaring his intention to leave this forum, he has in some way put the whole future of this forum in jeopardy. As Lily said, if everyone leaves on every little setback, very soon there will be no members left.
The killifish hobby is still in its infancy stage in Singapore. We need a core group of dedicated hobbyists to promote the hobby and help this forum grow. Sia Meng is one such hobbyist and we cannot afford to lose him.
Loh K L
Having read all feedbacks and comments, I feel that I should have point out a couple of things.
1. The sales of eggs, frys and fish is I suppose intended for hobbist to lay their hand on killifish. But it have not been stated that commercial breeders are not suppose to buy.
2. Looking at it in a long run, hobbist might not have enough time and expertise to look after the fishes well, thus if the intention is to spread the hobby around, isn't it good to have some LFS owner to keep killifish? How often do you see killifish sold in LFS? If not for the 2 killifish for sale I saw at Karin's shop, I will never even know of this species.
3. True, students and young people do not have the spending power of the commerial breeders, but I believe if the buyer speaks to the seller directly to indicate his/her interest, I believe the seller will work out something with the buyer. Maybe call the buyer when there's new eggs/frys. This gathering is not the end it all sales, I am sure the seller will still have a couple of breeding trios at home.
4. Let's face it, like it or not for this species to take off locally, IMO the LFS will need to see the commercial value of carrying this species and profit. I am pretty sure that most if not all of us will hopefully be able to walk into a LFS and view the different species killifishes before you buy. Much like how you view the tetras before deciding to get the Neon, Cardinal, Green Neon, Beacon, etc.
having said all this, I hope that hobbist and commercial breeders can co-exist for future gathering, we all know deep inside, the simple fact of 'Demand and Supply'. Demand from hobbist and supply of course from the breeders, i am sure most hobbist hope one fine day they can call a local breeder to order 20 eggs of a not-too-easy-to-find species they want.
my 2 cents worth. worth the 2 cents or waste of your bandwidth, you decide.....
Stormhawk wrote:
It is really up to you to keep a mixed strain killies. But please do not sell it to any one unless they are aware of what they are buying.but i see no wrong in keeping an aquarium strain, even if they're not a pure strain. in fact, i believe that keeping aquarium strains are part and parcel of the killie experience.
Au, point noted. just as how i seem to be experienced in breeding, my knowledge is limited to just several other fish as these are not killies. this is my first time breeding killies because my earlier notho quintet died before i could get the stuff up for them to breed.
as for raising fry, i always have reservations because i've never raised a single fry to maturity from my other spawns (catfish, cichlids, bettas.. etc.) most likely it's through my negligence (i admit, i can get pretty lazy at times) or to the basic lack of proper live foods for the fry. back then, i didn't have people like Ronnie, who would pass me a live grindal worm culture, let alone a microworm culture. and now that i have access to my very own cultures, i must say that i am rather confident i can raise killie fry to maturity. with guidance from seniors here like you and everyone else, i believe that for once,i will finally see a fish fry that i bred grow into a beautiful adult.
i am still a beginner and have never considered myself otherwise. you gave me some great insights into SAAs and i think Sia Meng would be a good mentor to me too in the area of SAAs. i consider everyone here to be my mentors and people who would guide other beginners like me on the proper ways and means of keeping killies. and this is the very reason why i feel that this forum is like a big family to me. i used to think that i couldn't find a place that i could feel comfortable in but the people here are very understanding and very willing to share their knowledge and opinions, just like how they are willing to help others in need. and at least here, things are conducted in a civil manner unlike what i've witnessed elsewhere.
PohSan, no worries there. just as how i believe that keeping aquarium-bred killies as part and parcel of killie keeping, i also ascribe to the school of thought that population codes and geographic locations be maintained per species/population just so that we can do our part to conserving these beautiful fish. and frankly speaking, i don't think i'm ready to think about selling, but rather i prefer to trade.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
to Sia Meng,
do return for i believe u have more to contribute to the hobby, just like everyone else, be it for commercial reasons, or purely out of passion.
and yes, i need u to teach me more about the incubation periods of the other Simp. species, so please, do return.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Sia Meng is a helpful guy, its really a loss for the killies forum if we really lose him. Intially i know nothing about killifish, he was the guy who sold me my first batch of killifish and i carry on to acquire more new species from the others.
I understand how he feels, he is really a keen hobbyist who wants to spread this hobby rather than selling his fish to someone who doesn't really take care of his killifish. Guys, try to persuade Sia Meng to return or its really a great loss to this forum.
I just discovered this heated discussion here. I find it is rather uncalled for. See, this site we have, with KL's blessing, is in infant stage and so is the first meet KL ever had organised for the members here at Far East.
Remember, people makes mistake, conciously or not. If anyone needs to comments, please be graceous, speak with calm head and do it constructively and in a manner that help the other party to improve.
Let's be constructive. I will start a new thread for those who wish to contribute their views on how future meets should run. Sia Meng, I would appreciate that you give your view there too. I beleive you have geniune complaints but be calm. We are into hobby and leisure comes first.
KL & Ronnie, may I request to delete this thread? I find it serving no real purpose.
Freddy,
I don't believe in deleting threads because that would be like practising censorship. I believe we are matured enough to argue about matters and deleting a thread would be equivalent to covering-up, something I'm loathed to do. I've always believe in being open and sincere.
Ronnie actually locked this thread but on my request, he unlocked it. This is because we have to let Darren Lum speak in his own defense. It wouldn't be fair if we don't give him a chance. He sms me this morning to say he would be posting tonight. He's a busy man so we have to give him time.
So far in this forum, I never had to edit or remove anyone's post. If there's any editing or removing to be done, I would prefer the one who made the post to do so him/herself. I've always been quite fierce in this forum but many of you know me well and know that I'm sincere. I admit sometimes I can be quite harsh but I hold no grudges against anyone.
Loh K L
Hi to all killies hobbyists,
Okay, I’ve just returned home after finished feeding the frys. Well, never thought that my acquisition could cause such a big hoo-haa and I would like to clear up the air and hope that all parties would show some restrains and settle down. Please take note that the whole World can “see” us and so let us discuss the issues in a more mature way.
First of all, Kwek Leong to me, is like a “Godfather” of killifish in Singapore. He is the pioneer. I’m not giving him a high hat to wear just because he is supportive of my move but simply because I respect him, and I’m sure all of us here do. Without KL, there will be no killies.com, there will be no gathering, no erect moss, and none of us would be here today in this forum discussing about our favourite killifish.
Secondly, if there is anyone who is really disappointed, I would like to sincerely apologise for any disappointment I had caused. However, I am puzzled as of why isn’t there a hobbyist, if he’s really disappointed, to fire the first shot, but instead it was the Seller. If a new hobbyist is serious and know a little about Fp. Gardneri N’sukka, why didn’t he/she give it a try at the auction? Did my appearance somehow showed that I’m filthy rich(absolutely opposite actually)? Or is it that nobody knew much about this specie or it’s not worth more than stated, or simply just join in to put up their hands? I had tried my best to be as sensitive as possible and cause as minimal problem to everybody but alas, there’s no way to please everyone. But I am proud to say that if I had walked in as a pure commercial buyer and insensitive, you can be assured that there will be no chance at all for other hobbyists to bring home a single fish/fry/egg.
I would like to take this opportunity to inform those hobbyists who missed the chance of owning the fishes due to my purchase, please drop me an email and I’ll give you a trio when I’m fully operational next year. One keen hobbyist that I know is Felix who was not able to get hold of the N’Sukka pair & Lagos frys. Felix, I’ll give you a trio of each when I’m ready so as to compensate for the disappointment that I’ve caused. And Lily, I will not forget what I’ve promised you also during the auction. For those newcomers, I could only sell them rather than give away, because anything that is possessed easily, it will not be treasured as much as those which are hard to obtain.
I clearly remembered about 3 years ago, I saw this elegant fish, swimming magnificently across Sam Yick’s 10ft(or 12?) long tank at Pet Safari. And when it paused once in a while, the Dorsal & Anal fins would stand up like a raising a flag and the Caudal fin would spread out wide, displaying all its might by its color. I was completely mesmerized and I’ve never seen such a small unique and beautiful fish. This is none other the Aphyosemion Australe spotted orange. The price then was $25 each when it was first introduced. I decided to buy 6 of them but was gone when I returned a week later. That is when I started sourcing around via Internet, first I wrote to Bill Shenefelt and he directed me to KL. To me, the beauty of this fish is the only freshwater fish that is comparable to the marine fishes. Not even the majestic arrowana or discus can match the vast varied color combination of killifish. That is how much I value and appreciate killifish. Up to date, there are still new species being discovered and this is amazing to me.
I myself know what it’s like to have a shoe-string budget when schooling, having only $0.30 cts while others got $1. And when I finally got $1 everyday, the others have $15 a week. I don’t come from a well-to-do family and I know what it’s like being a schoolboy with budget. That is why I agreed willingly to let the schoolboy have a pair because I can see that he is really serious about N’sukka and will treasure it. I even let the schoolboy choose the best pair out of the 5 pairs. I even helped him to choose a better and more mature female so that he can also enjoy the joy of seeing the development of a fry from an egg sooner. From my position, I would say that the more the merrier. But had the other two keen hobbyists make the effort to attend the auction, I would have considered letting go. To be frank, the 4 pairs that I bought are hardly sufficient to meet my targeted production rate. I would still need to and have been bringing in from overseas sources. I totally agree with Jian Yang about the in-breeding problem and in my position, I definitely have to do that so as to ensure the survivability of the specie, which is why I’m also sourcing locally.
If I’m the seller, I would be very happy that if someone, be it hobbyist or commercial buyer, is willing to pay at my requested price or even to the extend of an auction for all of my fishes. That would show how valued(not in $ & cents but rather the beauty and characteristics) that particular fishes are.
I had actually intended to approach veteran hobbyists like Ronnie, Sia Meng, Au SL & Lily besides Kwek Leong for assistance, but I do not know you guys well and also for fear of the unknown reactions I would get. Would it be supportive or negative when I let the cat out of the bag? One great fear is that the whole closely knitted killifish local community might just slam a no-sale-to-Darren-Lum edict. Maybe Sia Meng is right, I could have made private arrangement but I do hope to gain some understanding that there are a lot more other considerations and fear/risk factors involved which are not possible to disclose here.
I have my principles in this biz that I’m doing and I’m not just simply a commercial breeder, no matter what I’m still a hobbyist at heart. It is with this passion that challenges me to popularise and create an awareness to the public of killifish’s existence and to educate, especially the LFS, the characteristics of killifish and clear the misconception that they are like bettas. It is saddening to me to realise that there is not one single killifish displayed at the recent Aquarama 2003. What are we going to do about it? It is disappointing to learn that most LFS don’t even know what is killifish. It is saddening and infuriating to see the way LFS displayed the killifishes for sale, one LFS even displayed in sealed plastic bags for weeks!!, two LFS displayed them like bettas in small little containers which all perish within a week. Don’t you all think that this is even much more disappointing and sad? And what are we going to do about it?
I hope that with my clarification and open apology, things would settle down and progress constructive like what Freddy has calmly and maturely put it. Thank you for reading my extremely long post.
Cheers!
Darren Lum
I like to clarify that in terms of being the pioneer, I think Ronnie is the one. When I started on killies, I already knew Ronnie from way back but neither of us knew the other was interested in killies. Kean Huat who lives in the US of A offered to give me some eggs and he asked me in one of his emails if I know Ronnie. That's how I found out that Ronnie was already hatching killifish eggs. We met and I discovered that Ronnie already has the Fp gardneri N'sukka, Baissa and SJO. Ronnie didn't like annuals then because he thought they have very short lives.
I built the web site killies.com but without the help of many people, including Ronnie, I would never have done it. Without Ronnie's help too, I would never have started this forum.
If there's anyone who really deserves a lot of credit for starting a killifish scene here, he's Ronnie Lee. I hate to say this but the bugger is also one of the most generous guys I know. If you don't know this too, Ronnie is the first person to bring in the vinegar eels, microworm and grindal worm cultures. If anyone's a pioneer, it's him. I wish there was something bad I can say about Ronnie but other than the fact that he still owes me $15 for refilling his gas tank, I can't think of anything else
Loh K L
Kwek Leong, that's a load of compliments that I can slowly digest, but it's more credit than I deserve. Still, thanks for making my night at work a little brighter.
It's one thing to be in the scene early but it's quite another for making it a reality. I'm just happy to be a part of it.
It too, won't be what it is today, if not for the contributions from fellow forumers for making this a lively and friendly place, and for that, I thank you all.
For the lurkers, I know there are some very serious breeder here who are absorbing the information that's so freely given. I know too, that some are even more experienced than I am in fishkeeping and I beckon to these lurkers to participate and share your experience with us.
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Darren, first off, my sincere thanks for allowing me to leave the gathering with the Aphyosemion primigenium Kanda, without feeling like a broken wallet. It's a very nice fish and I'll distribute it around, if and when the opportunity allows.
One of the mottos that I try to live by is, "What I don't know, I learn. What I can't do, I try.".
Darren, I believe all this suspicion and alledged negativity basically stems from the fact that you've hardly communicated much with us.
If we know where you're coming from, I know the whole scene would have been different. I've discussed this with Kwek Leong and he proposed for us to meet. I too would like to see how we can compliment our individual efforts and contributions into the bigger scheme of things.
If we can achieve this, then everyone benefit. What say you?
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Hi Ronnie,
It's my pleasure and I wish you all the good luck with the Aphyosemion primigenium Kanda.
It's not so bad like suspicion and alledged negativity. Well, if you look at it from a business point of view, you just can't take the chance to rule out any possibilities and you have to take all round precaution. Each step that you advance, you'll have to analyse and think of what are the possible consequences and how to avoid or mitigate if that possible scenario really did happen. One wrong move and you'll have to start all over again. I hope you can understand my difficulty. But now that I can see the positiveness from you guys, I'm much more relieved. At least I still have a chance to acquire from local sources.
I'm all for it for us to meet up to further discuss. I'll leave it to KL to set the time and date. Thanks again.
Hi all,
I am back! I had a long conversation with Ronnie last night, a few issue were addressed. Frankly I was never angry with Loh or of any sort. This thread has gone far too long and I am getting lazy to read. I stop after what Lily had post about her views.
Ronnie, I will think about disposing my spare fish to LFS. My friend have been pestering me to, thus I might talk to him this weekend and work out something.
Stormhawk
Emm perhaps let me explain why such a statement came from me at the first place. By looking at the post you had written before our gathering, I had mislead you as someone who have experience with killifish and perceive you as someone who was very well read and inform. You had been answering questions and giving advises to beginners.on a personal note, i remembered asking Sia Meng what he feeds his killies at home because i was planning to get the Simp. auratus and his answer was, IIRC - "all killies eat the same things". thats not very helpful to me. dietary needs may differ between killie species and by knowing the diet of the killies from the breeder himself, i, as a buyer will know what to feed them without having to worry about them starving due to the lack of the correct foods.
Thus when you asked me that question, I was really shock. I thought you were only joking, and also thought that you will understand what I am trying to tell you when I mentioned, “all killies eat the same thing”. Now that I know that you do not really have experience with killies, I will use a different approach.
Let me share with you, you must be used to this statement as you might get this from experience breeders from oversea when they advised you on incubation period. Due to the differences in climate, some breeders will not advise when the recipients when they should wet their eggs. When I wrote to them, some will tell me “it is the same as RAC or same as nothos” Thus when I said it is the same, it means that whatever you have been feeding to you killies applies here. You should know by now except for dry food, all killies have almost the same diet.
My friend, people can be mislead with what you post here if they did not read the actual post. I am trying to explain to Felix why his AUS could have died and not complaining.he did mention that some people kept viewing the fish several times and he thinks the fish got pretty stressed. well for starters, take a look at any LFS and u can see people gawking at fish tanks before they start taking a net and catching the fish. everyone will look for the best looking fish and if it entails the viewing of the containers or tanks several times, then they'll do it, even if the fish get stressed……
To all,
I will continue to stay in the forum, but I am afraid I might not be as regular as what I used to be. It is not because of this incident by due to my current commitments and workload. I have too many things to do. One of which will be launching of a website. Au has a equal share in this website. (we shared the web hosting fees)
What you will be expecting:-
Goals and mission statements
A page on how we got start, our goal and mission.
Articles
As you guys know I have been experimenting on various types of spawning methods, raising method and incubating methods, and I would like to pen it down with photographs. Thus I will be spending time taking photographs and writing articles for our website. Au will have a writeup on counting eggs. Thus you can say whatever you will be seeing our website will be of our experience.
Events
We will also have a page on the events that we will be organizing, be it with killies.com or ourselves.
Photos
Any killifish website can’t be complete without this!
Fish and eggs list
This too!! Au and I will combine our fishlist as 1.
That’s all for the moment.
other commitment
My work, final year dissertation, my new tissue culture hobby and more!
regards
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