soft water

[strung_0ut]

hey everybody!
i just got a quick question about soft water. All that determines if water is soft or not is the amount of magnesium and calcium in it? I use peat in my filter to softer my water, but its too expensive for me so I want to try seachem's discus buffer, which says "softens the water by removing calcium and magnesium".
thank you for your help
-Dennis-

[caseSENSITIVE]

I really like George Booth's article on the water chemistry of the planted tank.

Most plants do not care whether it's growing in hard or soft water, as long as your gH isn't 0 degrees. I am blessed with naturally soft water (gH=1.2 degrees), so I need to raise it to ~3-4 degrees to avoid calcium deficiency problems. However, I've read that people with hard water put peat in a piece of cheese cloth and dump the sachet into their filters. I've seen peat for sale at incredibly low prices at garden centers. How are yours so expensive?

Given my soft water, I've never used Seachem's Discus Buffer. Are you trying to breed a soft-water fish?

[FC]

p-lvp,

I learnt alot from George Booth's website article too.

For your information, Singapore's water has GH of about 3~4 degree.

I am puzzled as to how peat can soften water. The Ca/Mg will still be there even if peat was added. Can anyone advise?

[strung_0ut]

thanks for the article, i started it and my heads hurting, i'll get to it later when i feel better. I get peat granules made by fluval and its $13+ U.S. My tonina is started to brown and I want to up it to its full potential, its such a beautiful plant. I don't know about the peat softening the water either, it just says so on the box and it lowers ph too..

[PeterGwee]

Yes, peat does indeed has the capability to lower the KH and GH somehow. I'm not sure how it does its job though.

Tonina requiring soft water again? Its a myth that is well spread I must said. Plants don't need soft water to grow..they need light, CO2 and nutrients...anything more than that does not grow plants. Thats about it...

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[caseSENSITIVE]

I am puzzled as to how peat can soften water. The Ca/Mg will still be there even if peat was added.

Without getting too technical, peat absorbs/binds Ca2+/Mg2+ ions and releases humic acid. Removal of Ca2+/Mg2+ softens water. The humic acid consumes kH, thus lowering pH. Unless you are attempting to breed certain specialty fish, then there is no reason to soften your water. Hardness is, after all, a measure of calcium and magnesium; both of which are essential nutrients for plants. Therefore, as long as your gH isn't 0 degrees, I wouldn't worry about it unless deficiencies develop. In fact, softening water is a cumbersome ordeal.

WATER SOFTENER: not recommended due to the high Na content.
PEAT: difficult to control and labor-intensive. Peat imparts discoloration to the water that can be removed by activated carbon. However, activated carbon is not recommended for planted tanks. Also, the organic acids released by peat invalidates the kH/pH/CO2 chart, making it virtually impossible to gauge CO2 concentration.
REVERSE OSMOSIS UNIT: RO water is virtually mineral-free so it can be mixed with tap water to the desired hardness. It is expensive to run however.

I get peat granules made by fluval

The peat granules sold in pet shops is a processed version of the peat you'll find in garden centers. If you still insist on softening water via peat, then buy the peat at local garden centers. Just make sure that there are no fertilizers added; and boil it before employment.

Dennis, if you would post your tank's specs, then I am sure fellow forumers can aid you in growing Tonia well.

[caseSENSITIVE]

I want to try seachem's discus buffer, which says "softens the water by removing calcium and magnesium".

Dennis,

I just checked out Seachem's website regarding the Discus Buffer and this is the description: "Discus Buffer™ adjusts water to any acid pH in the range of 5.8–6.8. It is completely compatible with Neutral Regulator™ and may be combined with it in fixed ratios to yield a preset pH. It is totally phosphate based and is free of carbonates. It will also soften the water by removing calcium, magnesium, and other divalent cations as precipitates. A 250 g bottle treats over 800 gallons."

Since the product is phosphate-based, its usage will most likely trigger an algal bloom. It also removes Ca, Mg, and other divalent cations (all essential nutrients for plants) as precipitates --> cloudiness. A local hobbyist and fellow forumer used similar phosphate-based products, and was rewarded with various algal blooms. Perhaps s/he'll elaborate.

[strung_0ut]

what do you suggest i do? ever since my peat ran out (blackened like the box said it would) my tonina has suffered, it began with its side shoots and was a nice green, but now its awful, i'll get pictures to you guys as soon as possible. i use plantgro base w/seachem floursih injection, diy co2 w/seachem co2 injection, and 2.5 watts a gallon and maybe around 6.8 PH, its directly under the light, i don't think it has to do with my nutrients/lights/co2, the lighting is fine i think but i will be getting higher lighting on monday PC. I have a gut feeling about straying away from your advices and I'll see what happens, do not be offended though. we all learn through experience
-Dennis-

[PeterGwee]

Stop using the peat...I need some tank data in order to help you get the problem over with.

Tank size in US gallons:
Amount of light:
KH:
pH at start of photoperiod and before lights off: ,
Fertilizers used and how often you dose them:
Amount of critters in the tank:
Type of plants and how heavily the tank is planted:


From what I can see, you are just dosing traces but none for the N, P and K which are the major nutrients for plants (macros). The plants are not going to grow and will stunt if any of the three nutrient (not including GH-->Ca/Mg as our tap is fine) especially the N is missing or extremely low (plant species have slight variation of N needs). Oh...CO2 is the biggest of them all and your DIY CO2 might well be the root cause of all things...

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[strung_0ut]

Sorry for coming up a bit arrogant in my last post. Reading Peter's last post made me realize that it makes a lot of sense and that I was just impulsive to buy a product. My plants have seemed to stunted growth. they're all nice and green except the Tonina Sp. Belem, but they all seemed to stopped growing at the fast rate they were going before.
Tank size: 29 US gallons
Amount of Light: 4- 20 watt fluorescents (2 powerglos, 2 coralife nutriplant bulbs)
KH: I do not know
PH before plants start photosynthesizing and after: I do not know, last time I checked my PH, it was at 6.8.
Fertilizers: Plantgro substrate, Seachem's Flourish, Leaf zone? consists of iron and potassium, all inconsistent doses, I dose a lot and inconsistently
Critters: 2 Crystal red shrimp and 3 japonica shrimp
Type of plants: 3 different mosses, tonina, stargrass 30+ stems in back (think i overplanted), baby tears, riccia

here are my pictures, the last two are my tank currently
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/str...x182/my_photos
Freddy, I went to imagestation awhile back and tried to post pictures but it said invalid image type, i was wondering since i don't htink this will work, if i could send you the pictures?

[caseSENSITIVE]

Two of the MOST important things every moderate to high-light planted tank hobbyists should own are pH and kH test kits. The values they yield enable aquarists to determine if adequate CO2 is available to the plants. Before you even measure these values, you must discontinue using peat and do several large water changes. Peat releases organic acids, which screw up kH and pH readings, making it virtually impossible to gauge CO2 concentration. Report to us these two values.

Right now, you are operating at ~2.6 WPG. You noted earlier that you'll be upgrading the lighting so let us know what the new light level will be. Try to get around 3 WPG. More than 3WPG isn't necessarily better. At 3WPG, you'll need to maintain between 15-30 ppm CO2 and fertilize frequently.

Nutrients can be broken down into 3 categories:

MACRONUTRIENTS: Nitrogen (N), Potassium (K), and Phosphorus (P). In a high light tank with low-moderate fish load, you'll have to supplement N and K. Many people do not dose extra P because there's enough in the fish food.

SECONDARY NUTRIENTS: Calcium (Ca), Magnesium (Mg), and Sulphur (S). Ca and Mg constitute the gH. As long as gH > 0, there's no need to dose extra. Most people do not dose S as it usually accompanies the other nutrients.

MICRONUTRIENTS: There's many, but the most talked about is Iron (Fe). Even if you have an iron-rich substrate, you'll have to dose extra because Fe is very unstable, often forming complexes that plants cannot use. This is why it is important to dose Fe frequently. Fe is often dosed along with other micronutrients.

The plants you've listed are nutrient-demanding. Coupled with the fact that the only fauna you have are a couple of shrimps, I would be very surprised if your macro/micronutrients are not nonexistent. However, don't worry about nutrients until you've figured out the lighting and CO2. But as Peter noted, preliminary analysis seems to indicate that your Tonia's failure is due to inadequate CO2 and macro/micronutrient levels, not hardness.

I know it's incredibly frustrating when our plants/fish are not faring well, but remember that all things in the universe (including plants) are governed by natural laws. As such, they behave very predictably. So keeping calm and taking it one step at a time will get you favorable results faster and more efficiently. Don't worry about offending us; this is a friendly forum. We will not hesitate to point out mistakes, but we will do so without being condescending so if you have question(s), then please fell free to ask.

[PeterGwee]

Okay..here is the routine I would suggest for you if you are willing to do weekly large water changes of 50%.

1)Get yourself a KH test kit and a pH test pen/test kit(have to be narrow range of at least 0.2 apart) Measure the pH/KH just before lights on and lights off. Compare it with the pH/KH chart from varies sources of the chart from the internet. Try to lower the pH using only CO2 to get 20-30ppm and keep it there for the entire photoperiod. Only when you get the CO2 fixed by changing the brew concentration, adding another bottle or getting a better way of mixing the CO2 can you do the nutrient thing. Your plants are not going to use up much if you don't do this right!

2)Prune dying or unsightly leaves and scrub the glass to remove algae if any. Clean the filter after that...(use only tank water!)

3)Do a large 50% water change and add de-chlorinator.

4)#Add 1/4 tsp of KNO3 2x a week (Once after water change and another dose on the fourth day)
#Add 1/4 tsp of K2SO4 only after water change
#Add 2 rice grains of KH2PO4 2x a week
#Add 7ml of flourish 2x a week

5)Repeat the whole steps again from 1-4 for 3-4 weeks and see if you like the results. Do note that this will not work well if you don't keep an eye on the CO2. I would definitely suggest you go with pressurized CO2 as it is stable and consistent as compared to DIY which requires a lot of effort from you to keep it stable. You can do it with DIY but it is work and most slack off after a couple of weeks and that is when plant problems and algae comes in. Its your choice though.

Finally, as suggested by p-lvp, do several large water changes first to dilute the peat effect before embarking on measuring and fine tuning your CO2 level using pH/KH.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[timebomb]

Peter & P-lvp,

I must say I'm really glad the 2 of you are members of this
forum. Your posts are so full of useful information and it's
obvious you 2 are very experienced in the hobby.

I'm really glad to have you 2 on board. I don't remember
if I said "welcome" to the 2 of you but if I didn't,
"Welcome to the Forum".

Loh K L

[PeterGwee]

Loh..thanks for the warm welcome. Its always a pleasure to be able to help newbies in the hobby.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[strung_0ut]

im eager to get nutrients, i heard you can get them in powder form for cheap at a local nursery? i have the discus buffer but i haven't used it, my lighting has upgraded to to JBJ 36'' PC's, one of the bulbs is aticnic and i want to change it because its so blue, what would you go for? freshwater compact 6500K pinkish? or 10000K bulb? Im going to change 50% of my water, and will get back to you on Ph's as soon as I can get the test, I would really like to show you two pictures i have.
Thanks I'll get back to you,
-Dennis-

[FC]

Dennis,

You could get it from Dr Mallick. The followings are recommended:
1) K2SO4
2) KNO3
3) KH2PO4
4) MgSO4
I paid about $7+ per kg of any above (if I remember it correctly).

Get the Tri-phospher lamp from Hitachi ? (blue packing), Philips 865, NEC ?, etc. Daylight (6500K) is the most popular because of the light colour (suitable for presenting most plant's type/colour) and the light spectrum (almost ideal for plants).

KH and PH test kits are essential for planted tank, they are also the most used. Once you etablished the tank, through first 1~2 months of testing/measurement, they are normally shelfed for good till your next re-scaping or CO2 tank re-filling.

Other useful but not-necessary-to-have test kits are GH, NO3, PO4. As long as you do not face algae problems, they are useless. Proper formulation and routine of fertilising will keep plants happy and test kits away.

[strung_0ut]

Dr Mallick? Would he be in Singapore? I live in California. I can't seem to find much in the bulb you were talking about either. I think my aticnic bulb has gave my moss those nice bright tips I've been wanting to achieve, I just don't like the color it makes my tank. I'll look more into them, thanks FC.

[PeterGwee]

Dennis, since you live in the US, you can get your stuff at http://www.litemanu.com

(stuff found on this page if you do not know where..) http://www.litemanu.com/cgi-bin/html....1.44519106069

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[caseSENSITIVE]

[these pictures are] like 2 weeks ago, i have cut the tonina stems down to their newly sprouts, I have upgraded to a JBJ 110 Watt aticnic & 6400K, in a day my mini moss has formed the nice bright tips that i've been waiting for, for a very long time. I'll let you know on PH, i've removed all peat. My plants seem to be doing well again, im just not sure about my tonina, and i want that fast growth that i hear about out of them. so yeah let me know what ya think.

Wow Dennis, that is a pretty tank. It has a lot of potential when all the plants fill in a bit.

(1) LIGHT: The JBJ system gives you 3.79 WPG. Such intense lighting requires that you do not let CO2/nutrients run low. If possible, reduce to 3 WPG. Plants are not very particular about the light bulb's color temperature as long as it's above 5000K. Like Freddy stated, most people use 6500K (daylight) bulbs. It emits the white light that you're familiar with. DIAGNOSIS: Lighting is fine.

(2) CO2: A 29G operating at >3WPG would require at least 3 Hagen yeast CO2 systems. Your single unit cannot possibly produce enough CO2 for a tank that size with that much light. We can confirm this when you take your kH/pH measurements. An external reactor (inexpensive and easy to build) is much more efficient at dissolving CO2 gas than the stepladder diffuser. With more than 3WPG for a 29G tank, many people feel that compressed CO2 system w/ external reactor is the only way to go. If that is not possible at this time, then set up a yeast CO2 system: 2 2-liter yeast bottles w/ external reactor. DIAGNOSIS: CO2 is inadequate.

(3) NUTRIENTS: This has already been discussed and Peter offered a fertilization recipe/schedule. DO NOT start dosing until you have set up the CO2 system and confirm that CO2 concentration is at 15-30 ppm. www.litemanu.com has everything except a micronutrients mix. www.gregwatson.com/products.asp has all the referenced chemicals, including a micronutrients mix (Plantex), so you can buy everything from one place to save on shipping costs. Greg may be able to ship internationally if you inquire. The measuring spoon set is really handy. DIAGNOSIS: Nutrients are inadequate.

Moss do not require very much light/CO2/nutrients. Tonia, on the other hand, will not do well if one or more of those factors are missing. Your Tonia was growing well for a while because it was feeding on its stored food reserve. And when the plant has exhausted this reserve and you weren't supplying extra, it starts to decline. Fine-tune your CO2 setup & start dosing nutrients and you'll get favorable results.

While we are at it, what kind of filter and substrate are you using?

P.s, i wish i could send you a current picture, but my camera is like broken, it costs me $40 and its bad, do you recommend any cheap cameras say around $100, which would give me pretty good quality?

I apologize but I unfortunately do not know anything about cameras. I never take pictures of my tank. Fellow forumers may be able to assist you; or you can ask the experts at Aquabotanic or Aquatic Quotient and they'll point you in the right direction.

[strung_0ut]

I am using an emperor 280 with basically a pad with used up carbon, florabase substrate, i am pretty much tapped out on money wise with christmas coming up and all, I can't really do much right now its pretty frustrating. Can you tell me a bit more on doing co2?

my x mas tank list:
ph/kh tester - first thing foremost
co2 upgrade
nutrients

this is everything i need, correct to aim for?