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Thread: I need help from the moss experts!

  1. #1
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    I need help from the moss experts!

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    My willow moss is not doing very well...I have a 29 gallon tank that gets 110 watts of 6700k light. The pH is 7.1, the kh is 14, and gh is around 17. I fertilize about every other day with dosing N,P,K and trace. I dont have the exact measurments of these becuase if changes day to day. The moss is mostly brown with some green tips, but its not as thick or dark green. I also have 3 adult SAE in that tank.

    thanks
    brb
    ben

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    RE: I need help from the moss experts!

    Ben,

    Firstly, I won't consider myself a moss expert but then again, my moss is doing quite well in my tank.

    One of the most important considerations for moss to thrive based on my experience is the temperature of the water. In Singapore, where I live, if I turn on my lights for a duration of say 10 hours, by the end of the lighting period, my water temperature can be as high as 35C. When that happened, my moss was browning. To overcome the problem, I invested in a chiller to maintain a water temperature of about 24-25C and since then, my moss has been thriving.

    Based on your GH, KH and PH parameters, it seems like you are not using any CO2. My water parameters are the following:

    PH 6.4
    KH 4
    GH 7

    Some do report that moss do well without CO2 in their tanks but I have never been able to achieve this. And from what I gather, moss that thrive well without CO2 are also populated using the emmerse growing method.

    I am not sure if I am helping much but that is all I can share with my successes with keeping moss.

    Cheers,

    Roger Thien

  3. #3
    I think its your SAE's from what I've read around, never had em before. The cold water HELPS a lot. I've seen major changes the same day when I cool down the temperature with ice along with the differences from a cooler tank and a warmer tank.

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    Re: RE: I need help from the moss experts!

    Quote Originally Posted by rthien
    Ben,

    Based on your GH, KH and PH parameters, it seems like you are not using any CO2.
    Roger Thien
    Are you sure that I dont have enough CO2?...I am using this calculator
    http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

    which has my CO2 at 33 ppm

    My water is also kept at a constant 26 C...Im starting to think that it is my SAE...perhaps its time to find a new algea eater...do any shrimp eat moss?

    ben
    ben

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    Ben, your CO2 is fine for the tank. Just double check on the am and pm CO2 levels to make sure that it stays near the high levels and does not drop lower than 20ppm and not higher than 35pm if you can help it.

    You have loads of light over a tank with only moss? You really don't need 3.8w/gallon of lighting for growing moss. 2w/gallon is more than enough for the purpose and that means less dosing of fert to keep up with.

    Maybe in the meantime, you can give folks here more clue/data on your tank so that we can help you better.

    Tank size: 29 gallons
    Light: 3.8w/g
    CO2: 33ppm (Double check to make sure it stays high during the photoperiod)
    Temp: 26 degree celsius
    Fert dosing regime:
    NO3:
    PO4:
    K:
    traces:
    Critter loading:
    Plants planted in the tank and how heavily planted (a picture would be best):

    Regards
    Peter Gwee :wink:

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    Pete...I wish I could give you a picture...The tank is heavly planted...glosso everywhere, java ferns, anubias, hair grass, star grass....
    I have the CO2 on a pH controller so I never worry about the levels
    as for the omitted ferts they are in the ranges where they should be
    NO3 5 ppm
    PO4 .1 -.2 ppm
    K enough...
    11 glow light tetras
    3 SAE
    6 OTO
    2 Shrimp
    ben

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    Are the other plants in your tank growing well? Any funny growth of deficiency symptoms especially the glosso? (Glosso are NO3 hogs and will stunt when the NO3 is too low. Most cheap NO3 kits we use are not very good for the range we need for planted tanks.) PO4 seems a tad low here and there might be issues of the kit measuring organic PO4 instead in which the plants cannot use.

    I suggest a routine for you if you don't mind the weekly 50% water change. It corrects deficiency by making sure there are enough nutrients by dosing 2-3 times per week while the 50% water change corrects the dosing errors. (The plants might not be growing well and hence an excess in nutrients would result from it while the water change corrects it.)

    Assuming your tap water is relatively free from NO3 and PO4, you can do the following routine.

    Prune and remove any algae or dead looking leaves
    Clean filter if necessary
    50% water change
    Add dechlorinator
    Check the CO2 level (In your case, make sure the pH probe is well calibrated)
    1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 2x a week
    1/4 teaspoon of K2SO4 only after water change
    2 rice grains of KH2PO4 2x per week
    5-6ml of traces 2x a week

    If you get good plant growth/mass, you can try increasing the dosage of the KNO3, KH2PO4 and traces to 3x a week. You might need to fine tune the routine a bit if your tap water has quite a bit of NO3 and PO4 though. Call your water supplier and ask for the NO3 and PO4 readings and adjust the routine from there.

    Regards
    Peter Gwee :wink:

  8. #8

    Re: RE: I need help from the moss experts!

    (1) Moss tends to collect lots of detritus/dusts, that would cut the moss strands from access to light --> browning except for the growing tips.

    (2) When I overdose iron, my moss will get black/brown. At the same time, I will start to see thread algae, which is a clear indication that there's excess iron in the water column. These two problems usually go hand-in-hand in my aquarium. Does anyone have similar experiences?

    If all else fails, then try dosing less of the trace solution to see if your condition improves.

    Quote Originally Posted by brbarkey
    My water is also kept at a constant 26 C...Im starting to think that it is my SAE...perhaps its time to find a new algea eater...do any shrimp eat moss?
    Shrimps do not eat moss intentionally. The bumble bees and tiger shrimps do eat soft mosses but not so much as to be noticeable.

    SAEs are another matter. They will nibble all the new side growths, but the individual moss strands should still be green. I doubt it's the SAE. But if your moss are spindly, then try taking them out of the tank. If you experience BBA, then increase CO2 level.

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    I don't own any test kits so I'm never sure what's inside my water. I have many brands of liquid fertilisers in my cupboard but I rarely use them. The last time I poured a few capfuls of Tropica Mastergrow haphazardly into my main tank, it cause a major algae outbreak. Obviously, I must have dose a capful too many. Frequent water changes and a big bunch of Hornwort dumped into the tank have eradicated most of the algae.

    As far as I know, moss needs very little fertiliser. I have many small bunches of mosses in small trays everywhere around the house. I use them to raise killifish fry. These trays are often left in dark places under a bench which I use to hold fish tanks. Sometimes, these trays are left for months under the bench but the moss stays alive and does not turn brown.

    As for SAEs, only adult ones eat mosses. Juvenile SAEs won't.

    A friend in Singapore suspects that I have some closely guarded secret to grow the mosses but honestly, I don't. He thinks I pee into my tank everyday and that, he believes is the secret to grow moss successfully. But I live with 4 women in the house and if they see me peeing into my tank, they would surely scream

    Loh K L

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    I grow many plants some people considers difficult into massive jungles, but the one plant that wouldn't grow for me is moss. I hardly dose fertilisers, and I live with 3 women in the house, so that can't be the reason.
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    Forgive my ignorance, by the way, what is SAE?
    Felix

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix Wong
    Forgive my ignorance, by the way, what is SAE?
    Felix
    the Siamese Algae Eater Crossocheilus siamensis (1024×76

    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    That's a very nice pic of an SAE, Choy. Do you have a pic of the false one? It would be good to let the newbies here know that there's also a false SAE around. By the way, I think you need one more woman in the house. The secret is having 4

    Loh K L

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    one woman is enough, thank you.

    My excess mosses share my bathroom in a dingy plastic tank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timebomb
    That's a very nice pic of an SAE, Choy. Do you have a pic of the false one? It would be good to let the newbies here know that there's also a false SAE around. By the way, I think you need one more woman in the house. The secret is having 4

    Loh K L
    The SAE is rather tricky as the scales reflects a different colour when shot with flash. I do not have a pic of false SAE unfortunately, unless someone in the forum has one to T-loan.

    Budak, timebomb is right, the trick is to have adequate number of women so they can keep each other busy (ladies, just kidding )
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    Quote Originally Posted by budak
    one woman is enough, thank you.
    Budak, I want to pinch your cheeks. You look so cute in your avatar

    Seriously, I hope you will try and persuade your "other half" to come here and moderate a sub-forum which I'm planning on creating. It's for people to chat about topics other than fish. It's often called a "chit-chat" sub-forum in other message boards but I would prefer not to call it by that name because the very term "chit-chat" seem to imply frivolity and superficiality.

    Mrs Budak, as I said in an earlier post, would be the perfect person to moderate a sub-forum for people to talk about topics other than fish. But until the day Mrs Budak agrees to moderate it or when I find someone just as ideal, I will shelve the idea to create such a sub-forum.

    Loh K L

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by timebomb
    That's a very nice pic of an SAE, Choy. Do you have a pic of the false one? It would be good to let the newbies here know that there's also a false SAE around.
    Here is a picture that compares the true SAE with the various lookalikes. And here is a detailed picture of the true SAE with all the distinguishing characteristics.

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    Thanks everyone for the replies...I kinda forgot I posted this As for the SAE's I think they are the culprit...they are all adults and I always see their noses down in the stuff. I will try to get some algea waffers or something and see if that improves...if it doesnt I will try and pee in the tank per timebomb's suggestion.
    ben

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    caseSENSITIVE, that was a very useful chart, especially for those who have never seen an SAE. Certainly almost NEVER to trust the LFS.

    One characteristic that was not mentioned in the chart, but a very visible one (vs counting barbels) is the gold stripe above the black. The real SAE has the black stripe merging into the reticulated scales on the back thus making it look "jagged", whilst the others actually have a gold/yellow band above the black the black band appear smooth.

    here's a video of the SAE so you can observe its characteristic movement – right-click and save
    why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
    hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica

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    I have two sub adult SAEs in a 30 gallon with erect moss growing, and they haven't touched it yet. I also have two FFFs (Jordanella floridae) in there and they haven't touched it either.
    Regards,
    David Grim

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