Fish from Bangkok, Thailand

**timebomb** · 29th Dec 2003, 12:07

Hi, folks,

These are the fish I brought home from Bangkok, Thailand. I bought most of them from Jatujak market but the Endler's livebearers and Betta simplex were given to me by Nonn Panitvong.

1. Brachygobius xanthomelas (BumbleBee Fish) - These are different from the normal Bumblebee Gobies we see quite often in our local fish shops. The ones I have in my tanks now are smaller. I have about 40 of them.

2. Dermogenys pusillus (Halfbeak) - Unlike those that can be found quite commonly in our local streams, the ones from Jatujak have colours on their dorsal and anal fins. I may be wrong but I think the ones I got are Wrestling Halfbeaks while those local ones are known as Forest Halfbeaks.

3. Boraras sp - Nonn said the ones I bought are an unidentified species of Rasboras but I believe he could be wrong. I think they are known as Mosquito rasboras here. Choy who has taken many pictures of rasboras should be able to confirm this.

4. Endler's Livebearers - I've heard a lot about this fish in Killietalk digest but have never seen them before. Nonn was very kind to give me the pair he was keeping in his office. The female of the fish looks almost exactly like a female Guppy.

5. Oryzias minutillus - They look like the Medakas I already have in my tanks but these are much smaller. I think Choy would love to take their pictures.

5. Betta simplex - Nonn gave me 4 of them. I'm not sure but I think I have 1 male and 3 females. I'm not familiar with Bettas so I will give the fish to hobbyists who are good with them. Jianyang and Francis are 2 persons I know who have bred Bettas before. I will give them first priority.

6. Sturisoma panamense - Oil and Nid gave me 2 of this fish. They are meant as gifts for my good friend, Dr Peter Chua who played host to Oil and Nid when they were in Singapore a few weeks ago. The fish is also sometimes known as a "Helicopter Fish" in Singapore.

Other than the Endler's livebearers which I have only a pair and the Sturisoma panamense which are meant for Peter Chua, I will be happy to give the fish to any local hobbyist who wants to keep them. Choy who's building a database of fish pictures will have first priority. After he has taken the pictures, I will give the fish to the person whom I think is most likely to succeed in breeding them.

Let me know if any of the fish interests you but please bear in mind that if you don't intend to breed them, I will give you last priority.

Loh K L

**Nonn** · 29th Dec 2003, 12:26

Hi Loh,

Just to give you more information, the Boraras you have is most closely related to Boraras micros, which can be found in North Eastern Thailand -and probably some part of Loas but no report yet. They were once though to be Boraras maculata -probably your Mosquito Rasbora. Their are a lot of differeces in these 2 species, the most obvious is that the new species grow to much smaller size than the B. maculata. They are found in some part of Eastern Thailand, and in Malay Penisular of Thailand, in some part they are found with a new species of Mouth Brooding Betta sp. which I believe 2 professor at Singapore University, Ng and Tan, are describing.

Another closely related species to the new Boraras you have are B. uropthamoides and B. merah -this is the one I bought in S'pore on my last trip.

The current status of Endler's live bearer is uncertain, we still use the name Poecillia sp. Endler with them. Someone believe that their natural habitat in a few pond in Venesula has been destroyed, thus they are probably extinct in the wild already. Keep them going!

B. simplex, There are 2 pairs, one younger male doens't have that much color. They are mouth brooding species, love pH around 7.5-8, an endangered species on IUCN redlist. Our tresure!

Nonn

**francis** · 29th Dec 2003, 12:51

Hi Loh,

Can i have a pair of the Betta simplex please?I have spawn B.edithae and the fry are about 1.5cm.I can pass some fry to you when they are bigger.

francis

**francis** · 29th Dec 2003, 13:04

Hi Nonn,

The mouth broodering betta sp you mentioned,Are you refering to B.sp Southern Thailand?Thks

francis

**hwchoy** · 29th Dec 2003, 14:03

Hi Nonn, I have heard talks about a new Boraras species from Thailand, possibly this is it. I had the B. micros but I did not managed to get a picture, but I can still remember quite well how it looks like.

Of the 5 described Boraras species, two are from Indochina region (the B. urophthalmoides and B. micros) while the rest (B. maculatus btw, -ta was changed to -tus, B. brigittae and B. merah) are all Sundaic (i.e. maritime southeast asia and Kalimantan). The urophthalmoides' type locality is in a swamp near Narathiwat and the range extends to the Mekong drainage (Rainboth, W.J., 1996
Fishes of the Cambodian Mekong).

I am also very excited to see the Endler's livebearer! :P

Timebomb, I am bringing my field camp gear to set up shop in your house

**NongOil** · 29th Dec 2003, 15:50

Originally Posted by timebomb

6. Sturisoma panamense - Oil and Nid gave me 2 of this fish. They are meant as gifts for my good friend, Dr Peter Chua who played host to Oil and Nid when they were in Singapore a few weeks ago. The fish is also sometimes known as a "Helicopter Fish" in Singapore.

Sorry Loh, but please let me correct. Those 2 fishes I gave you is not Sturisoma panamense. It's Rhineloricaria sp. 'Red Lizard' Please read the information of this fish here. You might call them "Red Helicopter"

Those fishes came with a pair. They also can be bred if good condition provided.

**hwchoy** · 29th Dec 2003, 16:08

they don't look like helicopters to me

**RonWill** · 29th Dec 2003, 19:18

Originally Posted by NongOil

Sorry Loh, but please let me correct. Those 2 fishes I gave you is not Sturisoma panamense. It's Rhineloricaria sp. 'Red Lizard' Please read the information of this fish here. You might call them "Red Helicopter"

NongOil, I believe that the commonly nicked 'helicopter' is from the Loricariidae family and one of those 'oddballs' I kept was the Farlowella Acus [Farlowella=named after W.G. Farlow; Acus=Pointed, a needle].

Farlowellas are cool dudes in planted tanks and will also keep algae in check. Aside from what algae that's available in the tank, their diet should be supplimented with boiled peas and blanched cabbage (I tried fresh and raw, but they didn't like it). Additional suppliment should also include algae or vege tablets.

Those fishes came with a pair. They also can be bred if good condition provided.

Breeding will occur in dim areas of the tank especially in wedges between PVC pipes, eg. the overflow pipes. The eggs are about 2mm but their youngs are difficult to raise. Even though I had a mixed paste of potato, spinach and pea, smeared near the surface, the frys didn't take to it and wasted away.

Perhaps I should also mention that the male 'Twig or Whiptail Catfish' has a longer, slimmer snout, with a fair bit of bristles. Females have broader snout and less bristles. When viewed from the top, males are slimmer and females somewhat broader at mid section.

Good luck to whoever is gonna breed them. I'm interested to know how you got along.

**timebomb** · 29th Dec 2003, 22:30

Originally Posted by Nonn

They were once though to be Boraras maculata -probably your Mosquito Rasbora. Their are a lot of differeces in these 2 species, the most obvious is that the new species grow to much smaller size than the B. maculata.

Nonn,

I checked the fish against the photographs I found on the net (some of which were taken by Choy) and I must say they look very much like the Boraras maculatus. The maculatus are small fishes too so it's hard to tell if they are bigger than those I have in my tank now. The fish in my tanks have 3 spots on their bodies just like the maculatus. The only distinct difference is that my fish does not seem to have the red colouration that appears on the maculatus. This could however be due to the fact that my fish are still unsettled. Anyway, we would know for sure this weekend when Choy comes to my house to take the pictures. He should be able to spot a difference, if there's any.

The Betta simplex, your national treasure, are in safe hands. I gave a pair of it to Francis this evening. He's good with Bettas so I'm quite sure he will succeed in breeding them.

I will be breeding the Endler's livebearers myself. The female is already pregnant with fry so it should be just a matter of time for her to drop the babies.

Originally Posted by NongOil

Sorry Loh, but please let me correct. Those 2 fishes I gave you is not Sturisoma panamense. It's Rhineloricaria sp. 'Red Lizard'
Those fishes came with a pair. They also can be bred if good condition provided.

Oil,

Sorry about the mix-up. I've already passed the fish to Peter Chua this afternoon. Heck, if I had known they were a pair, I would have kept them for myself

Peter who isn't much into breeding fish probably won't know even if they spawn in his tank.

Originally Posted by RonWill

Good luck to whoever is gonna breed them. I'm interested to know how you got along.

Ronnie,

If you like, I can talk to Peter and see if he's willing to give the fish to you. Like I said, it would be such a pity if the fish spawns in his tank and he didn't do a thing about it. Peter's an okay guy and he would agree to this, I'm sure. Only problem is he probably won't be able to catch them in his heavily planted tank.

Originally Posted by hwchoy

Timebomb, I am bringing my field camp gear to set up shop in your house

Yeah, you do that, my friend

. I will be watching you closely to learn more about taking fish photos.

Originally Posted by francis

Can i have a pair of the Betta simplex please?

Okay, Francis, you got a pair. I hope you took note of what Nonn wrote about them being the national treasure of Thailand

I wish you all the best of luck. You don't have to give me the fry when you succeed in breeding them. Just pass them around to local hobbyists who won't hybridize them. We don't encourage people to come up with new strains. What we hope is that hobbyists try to keep the fish pure and in its natural form.

Loh K L

**RonWill** · 29th Dec 2003, 22:55

Originally Posted by timebomb

If you like, I can talk to Peter and see if he's willing to give the fish to you. Like I said, it would be such a pity if the fish spawns in his tank and he didn't do a thing about it. Peter's an okay guy and he would agree to this, I'm sure. Only problem is he probably won't be able to catch them in his heavily planted tank.

Kwek Leong, I've got my hands full with a new setup and tankfuls of young Blue/Scarlet badis badis and Blue Panchax.

Unless I can offload some of these fellas, I'll be spreading myself too thin, so let's have Peter take a shot at it first.

so... anyone want young badis or panchax?

Oh, one more thing... can I join the field camp as an observer?

**hwchoy** · 29th Dec 2003, 23:03

Originally Posted by timebomb

I will be breeding the Endler's livebearers myself. The female is already pregnant with fry so it should be just a matter of time for her to drop the babies.

Loh K L

Hey! the queue for F1 Endlers start HERE:

hwchoy

**hwchoy** · 29th Dec 2003, 23:12

Originally Posted by timebomb

Anyway, we would know for sure this weekend when Choy comes to my house to take the pictures. He should be able to spot a difference, if there's any.

you make me sound like some kind of Boraras expert! very pressurising leh

I'm just lucky to have kept all five described species. As a fact, the three "Sundaic" Boraras are considered "big" compared to the Indochinese species. The B. micros is very small compared with the B. maculatus. And I have been told there are two varieties of maculatus, one with big spots and the other smaller spots.

Originally Posted by timebomb

Originally Posted by hwchoy

Timebomb, I am bringing my field camp gear to set up shop in your house

Yeah, you do that, my friend

. I will be watching you closely to learn more about taking fish photos.

Loh K L

start keep your glass clean of algae, kekekeke

**stormhawk** · 30th Dec 2003, 01:25

Nonn, could you supply me with more info as to the captive care of Betta simplex? I'm not very good with wild bettas. Managed to keep several Betta coccina for a few weeks once and that was that. Had some persephone that I got from a local fish shop and they all died pretty soon after.

If what you say is true then I'm blessed with the right level of pH. My tapwater reads pH7.5 and I suppose that's a good reading to start with. Oddly though, I always thought that bettas prefer acidic waters. You stated pH range of 7.5 to 8, that's pretty alkaline.

Loh, I'm still trying to free up some space. Just bought some plastic tanks to house my juvenile male magnificus. They were sparring the whole day and their fins are pretty ragged. The constanciae eggs have just eyed up and the young pair of Chrom. bitaeniatum Lagos that I just recently obtained from Ronnie have just spawned earlier tonight after I moved them from their temporary container to a larger plastic tank. In fact, these Lagos really boggle me. It took the pair less than 5 mins from their introduction to the new tank to start the mating display and eventually laying of eggs on the java moss. I've yet to check if there's any eggs but I believe there are. Saw the female go pretty close to the moss and the pair just wiggled.

Oh yes, regarding Endler's livebearers, they are considered to be extinct in their type habitat. So you guys are helping out in the conservation of these beautiful gems. :wink:

**stormhawk** · 30th Dec 2003, 01:38

Well Choy, make it the two of us :wink: I've kept all 5 Boraras species before. In fact, my favourite is Boraras micros. I've got plenty of females and just 1 or 2 males.

Didn't count the rest of the Boraras but they're still there.

**Nonn** · 30th Dec 2003, 11:53

HI guys,

Let start with B. simplex first, they are from stream that run from Lime-stone moutain in Krabi province. That is why they love alkaline water. I measured their water during rainy season at 7.5, so I figured it might be a little more alkaline in the dry season. That is why, I give you the figure 7.5-8. Despite the fact that this species is being catch and exported in good number for many years, there are not much report of success with this species probably because of the common believe that Betta like low pH. Having said that, I don't think they are that picky about water quality. As long as you keep them in good condition, I'm sure they will breed. Put in a few pot or large PVC pipe for them to breed in and they will breed. The male will carry eggs and fry in his mouth for about 10-15 days, he will then split out anything from 20-74 fry. 74 is our record high at the moment, let see if anyone can beat this number

http://www.siamensis.org/article/a008.asp

Take a look at the pictures in the link provides above, you should get some idea.

Ah...Boraras my favorite genus as well...I like small fishes. I've kept 4 species, it was B. brigitae that I miss. I bred the B. uropthalmoides in small lotus pond. Also do some test by putting them with Endler's, the result was terrible. I never get Boraras fry from the pond with Endler's in it. With Guppy all over the country I guess some of this small native species are in trouble. Anyway, the B. urop' are quite wide spread....

The new species look very much like B. micros, the main different is that they do have some red color on them, unlike B. micros that is very plain white dotted fish. You are very lucky that they come in while you were here. They don't come in often.

Nonn

**hwchoy** · 30th Dec 2003, 12:08

Originally Posted by Nonn

Ah...Boraras my favorite genus as well...I like small fishes. I've kept 4 species, it was B. brigitae that I miss. I bred the B. uropthalmoides in small lotus pond. Also do some test by putting them with Endler's, the result was terrible. I never get Boraras fry from the pond with Endler's in it. With Guppy all over the country I guess some of this small native species are in trouble. Anyway, the B. urop' are quite wide spread....

The new species look very much like B. micros, the main different is that they do have some red color on them, unlike B. micros that is very plain white dotted fish. You are very lucky that they come in while you were here. They don't come in often.

Nonn

Any details about where this boraras originate from, meaning which part of Thailand? Any informal names given already? I am glad that it looks like the micros, meaning the body is shorter and rounder rather than slim like maculatus and brigittae?

If you look up Boraras brigittae in FishBase you'd find them showing a urophthalmoides picture. I gave them a brigittae picture (you can see it there by clicking the species picture) previously but for some reason either they can't seem to see the difference between a brigittae and a urophthalmoides!

**stormhawk** · 30th Dec 2003, 15:09

Choy, some people regard brigittae as a form of urophthalmoides. In fact, some of them think they're the same species. They vary mostly in colouration and perhaps size but to others they're just the same.

Nonn, thanks for the information. I guess I'm ready to maintain these Betta simplex as it seems my tap water parameters are just perfect for these guys. As to fry care, do you have any tips or information that I may use? Especially towards the issues of feeding and housing the fry.

KL, do contact me as to when I can go over to your place to collect the simplex pair.

Thanks in advance. :wink:

**francis** · 30th Dec 2003, 15:22

Hi Loh,

Thank you so much for the betta simplex.Of course,many thanks to Nonn too.I will do my best to take good care of these national treasure of Thailand.If i do spawn them i`ll only pass them to hobbylist who will not hybridize them.Once again Thanks Guys.

I`m also very interested in the endler too.So i`ll queue after Choy

francis

**hwchoy** · 30th Dec 2003, 17:57

Originally Posted by stormhawk

Choy, some people regard brigittae as a form of urophthalmoides. In fact, some of them think they're the same species. They vary mostly in colouration and perhaps size but to others they're just the same.

well, some people also can't tell a toyota from a honda

in fact their biggest difference is their body shape (other than the coloration).