erratum: Ep fasciolatus zimiensis SL89 not SL99

[timebomb]

Bill, Ronnie,

I'm afraid I have bad news. I think Ronnie's are all males. I'm reluctant to report this but I actually had something like 4 females. All but one died. The females seem to be suffering from some strange disorder. The bodies are out-of-shape. They seem to have very well endowed bosoms.

Here's a picture of the last female.



Loh K L

[ruyle]

KL,
When I saw the earlier picture of one of the juveniles with this problem, I
knew that it would have to be culled. I didn't want to tell you and break the
euphoria...this swelling could be from tumors caused by bacteria, or viruses (as Ronnie has mentioned). I'm not up on fish physiology but this swelling is behind what I would think the throat (thyroid) would be, which could have been treated with potassium iodide. If Ronnie has all males, it looks like I'd better see if David has some eggs for sale. :wink:

Please don't be discouraged, there's a reason why these are rare in the
hobby.

Regards,

Bill

[timebomb]

it looks like I'd better see if David has some eggs for sale. :wink:

Bill, the eggs are too highly-priced. Please don't buy any more for us but if you want to hatch them yourself, please feel free to do so. I feel terribly guilty having fail to raise the next generation from the eggs you sent.

Loh K L

[ruyle]

Kwek Leong,
Please don't feel guilty, these are *not* an easy specie or everybody would have these. I find the tumorous swelling in the pectoral area as
baffling as you do, particularly since it only seems to affect the females.
Gives rise to the wonder of how David is doing with these, how many
females to males in the ratio that survive. They are currently not offered
by David on Aquabid, but I will be talking to him.

You and Ronnie can at least enjoy the beauty of the males, in the interim.

Regards,

Bill
farang9

[ruyle]

KL, if the female is still living, please quarantine and do the following:

(this is from the master himself *Wright* who says he stole it from
Untergasser)

1. Make a stock solution by adding 0.5g iodine plus 5g of potassium iodide
to 100cc of water.
2. Use 1 drop per 5 liters of water which will be re-added at each water
change.
3. No carbon filtering

Takes 2-4 weeks for this goiterism to disappear. He also thinks it's weird
that it has affected only the females.

Bill
farang9

[timebomb]

Make a stock solution by adding 0.5g iodine plus 5g of potassium iodide to 100cc of water.

Oh geez, where am I going to get this stuff? Anyone know?

Loh K L

[RonWill]

Oh geez, where am I going to get this stuff? Anyone know?

Kwek Leong, there's a chemical supplier in the same factory building I work in. Will pop him an email and report back here.

In the mean time, here's a FAQ on Potassium Iodide (KI) and relevant info on Iodine at;
http://pearl1.lanl.gov/periodic/elements/53.html
http://www.webelements.com/webelemen...ext/I/key.html
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/foo...ion/iodine.php
http://www.scescape.net/~woods/elements/iodine.html

[whuntley]

KL, if the female is still living, please quarantine and do the following:

(this is from the master himself *Wright* who says he stole it from
Untergasser)

1. Make a stock solution by adding 0.5g iodine plus 5g of potassium iodide
to 100cc of water.
2. Use 1 drop per 5 liters of water which will be re-added at each water
change.
3. No carbon filtering

Takes 2-4 weeks for this goiterism to disappear. He also thinks it's weird
that it has affected only the females.

Bill
farang9

Bill,

Since communicating with you, off forum, about this, I have had several second thoughts.

Aren't the guys who are having this trouble the same ones who keep and breed various shrimps? I have never gotten shrimp or crayfish to reproduce without ample iodides, either in their water or their foods. That suggests that SG water (unlike for those of us from ice-age glacial regions) maybe has plenty of iodine, already?

The US has mandated "iodized salt" because the glaciers melted and washed all our best solubles into the oceans. Our soil is, therefore, deficient. That means much home-grown food is also iodine deficient.

Not only am I puzzled by the females being the only ones affected, the location of the swelling looks too far back to be a swollen thyroid. Most fish thyroid problems appear on the lips or just below the jaw. This bulge looks to be aft of the operculum, which is as far back as thyroid swelling usually happens (usually just below the gill covers).

We may not be able to get iodine, here, readily, because the kids learned in chemistry class how to make a fine explosive with it. [Our version of the nanny state thinks you can prevent stuff by keeping the ingredients away. For example, "Don't let teens have condoms and they won't ever have sex." Honest, they really think that way!]

Pour ammonium hydroxide over iodine crystals in a filtration funnel, and spread the wet mess across the floor. When it dries, it becomes a pressure sensitive explosive that is guaranteed to make the teacher jump when it is walked on. :-) The "crackle, crackle" is very satisfying to juvenile senses of humor. It isn't actually dangerous, used that way.

Legitimate users of iodine, potassium permanganate, quinine, and a whole long list of useful materials is denied us, here, by bureacratic nannies who make such rules in blatant defiance of what used to be our constitution.

OT Aside: Ben Franklin warned us, over 200 years ago, that "Those who would trade a little freedom for a little safety will end up with neither." I'm irritated that it prevents me from the peaceful pursuit of my hobby, and frequently remind my designated congressfool just how angry I am. The effect is something like vigorously kicking a six-foot wall of foam rubber. Stand back, when winded, and observe that nothing has changed.

Back OT: Do not throw any of those females with lumps away, please. If you can't do the necropsy, dunk it in some Formalin or alcohol and send to someone who can. I bet we can get Dr. Barry Cooper to have a look at one, and give us an opinion. Barry is former head of the Dept. of Veterinary Pathology at Cornell, and currently teaches at Oregon State U. I think he and David are fairly close to each other, so he could help get the cure to the source, if need be.

Dr. Cooper also can get more elaborate analysis done for moderate cost-covering fees, sometimes. It can be a useful service to keep in mind.

Good luck with the remaining ZIIs.

Wright

PS. Has anyone suspected internal parasites and tried an anti-helmenthic on them? Might be worth hitting them with some flubendazole or similar worming med.

[ruyle]

Wright wrote:

PS. Has anyone suspected internal parasites and tried an anti-helmenthic on them? Might be worth hitting them with some flubendazole or similar worming med.

Wright,
I, too, thought it was too far back for a thyroid problem and using flubendazole would definitely be worth a try. KL, do you happen to
have some of this? Or praziquantel?

Bill
farang9

[RonWill]

Back OT: Do not throw any of those females with lumps away, please. If you can't do the necropsy, dunk it in some Formalin or alcohol and send to someone who can

Wright, afraid I'll never contemplate a job in the morgue or working with cadaver*, but since I concoct my own record cleaning fluid, will Isopropyl alcohol (IPA) do?
* They use Formalin to preserve the human flesh as well... don't they??

Barry is former head of the Dept. of Veterinary Pathology at Cornell, and currently teaches at Oregon State U. I think he and David are fairly close to each other, so he could help get the cure to the source, if need be.

David is either busy or preparing to be an expectant father but it'd be informative to have his imput.

Dr. Cooper also can get more elaborate analysis done for moderate cost-covering fees, sometimes.

What $ damage are we looking at?

FWIW, I went through my reference and couldn't find a potential cause but these ZIIs were never put through flubendazole treatment.

[whuntley]

Back OT: Do not throw any of those females with lumps away, please. If you can't do the necropsy, dunk it in some Formalin or alcohol and send to someone who can

Wright, afraid I'll never contemplate a job in the morgue or working with cadaver*, but since I concoct my own record cleaning fluid, will Isopropyl alcohol (IPA) do?
* They use Formalin to preserve the human flesh as well... don't they??

Barry is former head of the Dept. of Veterinary Pathology at Cornell, and currently teaches at Oregon State U. I think he and David are fairly close to each other, so he could help get the cure to the source, if need be.

David is either busy or preparing to be an expectant father but it'd be informative to have his imput.

Dr. Cooper also can get more elaborate analysis done for moderate cost-covering fees, sometimes.

What $ damage are we looking at?

FWIW, I went through my reference and couldn't find a potential cause but these ZIIs were never put through flubendazole treatment.

Formalin is just an old trade name (now public domain, like Aspirin) for 37% formaldehyde solution. Yes, it is used to preserve human rermains. Pathologists prefer that you use this wicked carcinogen. I guess they are used to the smell.

In modern biology, this causes all kinds of grief, for it is a powerful tanning agent. It alters the DNA irretreivably. Ethanol is the alcohol of choice for causing the least damage to tissue and DNA. [It is so wrapped in red tape by the old US prohibitionist laws that it is almost impossible to get, here.]

Right across the border in Tijuana, MX it is cheap and plentiful. Vodka or Gin would no-doubt work for short storage. 151 proof rum? IDK how good isopropyl (propanol-2) would be. Don't use the rubbing alcohol with lanolin added. :-) Methanol is another tanning agent, so avoid it.

I don't recall exact costs for the University analyses, but it seems they did some pretty fancy stuff for less than US$50.

Cheers (obligatory parting comment, considering the grim subject matter! :wink: )

Wright

[timebomb]

[Our version of the nanny state thinks you can prevent stuff by keeping the ingredients away. For example, "Don't let teens have condoms and they won't ever have sex." Honest, they really think that way!]

Wright, we live in a country where chewing gum is banned. So rest assure we understand your frustration with a nanny state .

I don't know the relation between iodine in the water and shrimp breeding but my shrimps multiply in great numbers in my planted tanks. As for the observation I made - that only females are affected - I could be wrong about this. I've never seen a confirmed ZII female, not even in pictures. I think they are females only because they don't have colours on their bodies but it could be they are still young.

As for internal parasites, I'm quite sure that's not the problem. I don't know why some of my ZII's exhibit Dolly Parton-like chests but other than that, there are no other symptoms. They have good appetites and swim normally just like the other ZII's with less well-endowed bosoms. If the fish should expire, I'll preserve the body and send it to Barry. I don't have any formalin at home but I'll keep the body in the mortuary (the freezer in my fridge) until I get some.

Never thought that I may send a fish's body for autopsy but we live and learn .

Loh K L

[timebomb]

KL, do you happen to have some of this? Or praziquantel?

Bill, I have flubendazole. I'll medicate the fish with it but I don't think it's a problem of internal parasites. No harm trying, I suppose. I've already lost about 4 ZIIs and the last remaining infected fish will probably die too if I don't do anything.

Loh K L

[RonWill]

I think Ronnie's are all males...

Kwek Leong, I'm glad you returned one confirmed male under my care or I'd still be waiting for the other 3 to color up. With your male and my largest ZII (both fishes of the same size), it becoming obvious that mine may be all females (no wonder there's no nice color! ) On a brighter note, mine don't need 'D-cups' for their bosoms

For the Iodine & Potassium iodide, the supplier replied, "Enough stock to last you 2 lifetimes. Happy fishing"... but he forgot to tell me the price or packaging. So how should I proceed from here?

Bill, going by the looks of things, I may have 1 male and 3 females. Will be setting up spawning tank for a trio later today.

[ruyle]

Ronnie wrote:

Bill, going by the looks of things, I may have 1 male and 3 females. Will be setting up spawning tank for a trio later today.

Ronnie, that is hopefully great news indeed! Is the blunt-nose/pointy-nose
a reliable sexing trait? Curious how that came out.....

Best of luck to you!

Bill
farang9

[whuntley]

Hi all,

I was doing a bit of reading on this species, this morning.

They come from a relatively arid section of coastal Sierra Leone which leads me to engage in a little wild a** speculation. :wink:

Since their area of narrow rain forest and mostly savannah gets less than half the rain of places like the Niger Delta, and only one -- not two rainy seasons, they may be used to considerably harder water than is common for fish farther south and particularly East of the Dahomey Gap.

David calls them a Lampeye, which I don't think they are, but that suggests something else. I have had best results with Lampeyes with moving water over eggs and high oxygen at all times. High oxygen is difficult with really warm water, but could be worth a try.

I have put eggs in a plastic seive and run bubbles up under it. The bubbles flowed around the outside and not up through the eggs, but the constant water motion was good, I think. I have also just put a rigid airline to the bottom of a pilsner conical glass and kept the eggs bubbled into suspension, that way. [Others have built little egg tumblers as vertical cylinders like a hamster exerciser, driven by air.]

Based on my brief reading, and lacking any contradictory input from those actually hatching and raising good babies, I would probably try the following. Start with a bit harder water, maybe GH of 8 or 10? KH of at least 4-6. Add a pinch of salt to bring tds up to about 400-500 ppm. Provide aeration and good current for both eggs and babies.

Remember that this is pure speculation. Free advice is still worth every penny, so do your own homework, too. OK?

Wright

[RonWill]

Since their area of narrow rain forest and mostly savannah gets less than half the rain of places like the Niger Delta, and only one -- not two rainy seasons, they may be used to considerably harder water than is common for fish farther south and particularly East of the Dahomey Gap.

... I would probably try the following. Start with a bit harder water, maybe GH of 8 or 10? KH of at least 4-6. Add a pinch of salt to bring tds up to about 400-500 ppm. Provide aeration and good current for both eggs and babies.

Hi Wright,
I'm quite undecided how start spawning the ZIIs... whether to let KL's male join a harlem* in this tank... (* 3 females, I'm 80% sure)

... or transfer a 1M/3F group to another tank with the parameters you've suggested.

Before I do anything else, here's the latest pic of the largest alleged female.


and this is Kwek Leong's male... (difference should be quite obvious, no?)


Bill, the blunt/pointy theory isn't proven just yet because the 3 still doesn't show any color.

[whuntley]

... I would probably try the following. Start with a bit harder water, maybe GH of 8 or 10? KH of at least 4-6. Add a pinch of salt to bring tds up to about 400-500 ppm. Provide aeration and good current for both eggs and babies.

Hi Wright,
I'm quite undecided how start spawning the ZIIs... whether to let KL's male join a harlem* in this tank... (* 3 females, I'm 80% sure)

... or transfer a 1M/3F group to another tank with the parameters you've suggested..

If their present tank has plenty of cover, it may be safest to introduce the male to the females' familiar territory. The probability of jumping out will increase dramatically when the male is added, so be sure the tank is tightly covered at all times.

A very common problem with trios (or more females) is one female following a breeding pair and eating every single egg as it is laid.

With three, it can only be more likely that this useful (to the second female) reproductive strategy will happen. It doesn't work in favor of a hobbyist interested in production, so watch carefully for it. [With non-schooling fishes, I usually prefer one pair per tank.]

This, of course, is all from one with zero experience with this species and with only about four or five Epis, total. Take it with a grain of salt.

No, rather, give that grain to the fish.

Wright

[RonWill]

If their present tank has plenty of cover, it may be safest to introduce the male to the females' familiar territory.

Wright, I have my own reasoning to that, but I'd like to listen to your version why that would be so.

When the tank's picture was taken, I've lifted off all the acrylic 'Euro-bracings'* and other adjoining pieces, so it's not really as open-concept as I would have liked.
* Have a pic of the acrylic bracing somewhere, will upload when I can find it

A very common problem with trios (or more females) is one female following a breeding pair and eating every single egg as it is laid.

Besides the 2 other 'female' ZIIs, there's about 6 ANNs, 2 trios of BIT Ijebu Ode, 4 XIPs and a few Corydoras pygmaeus. If I need worry about egg eating or fry predation, I best move the breeding pair elsewhere and perhaps with a few egg-friendly Cherry Shrimps (unless the ZII fry can hide as well as the 2 baby ANNs I scooped out the other day).

No, rather, give that grain to the fish.

Kosher or marine? :wink:

Kwek Leong, so how should I proceed with the Iodine & Potassium iodide?

[ruyle]

Ronnie wrote:

Kwek Leong, so how should I proceed with the Iodine & Potassium iodide?

Ronnie, I'm for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" on this. None of the remaining fish have this pectoral deformity, do they? Wright makes a good point that SG water probably has enough iodine if you are keeping healthy shrimp. For higher oxygenated water, now would be a good time to try a de Bruyn filter (has 27% more oxygenation over a sponge filter) or use a back filter with a bio-wheel to increase the oxygen level. :wink:

Best of luck!

Bill
farang9