Largish permanent setup

[LittleMousling]

I looked through the old posts but didn't see anything that covered this question, nor on the web, so I thought I'd stop lurking for a minute ...

When people talk about "permanent setups" with non-annuals (I'm thinking specifically of P. annulatus here), they usually discuss 2' tanks, 15 gallons or smaller. Are larger tanks feasible? Other than not wanting to limit yourself, are there good reasons not to keep a species tank in a larger aquarium, say 30 gallons? I'm down to two heavily planted tanks, a 10 and a 30, and frankly I'd rather put my Apisto. bitaeniata pair in the 10 and save the 30 for an annulatus species tank, if that seems like a good idea. Potential problem, though: I'm not sure how to filter it. Obviously I don't want much of a current or anything that will suck up fry, but I'd rather not use a sponge filter since the bubbling's not great for the plants (dispersing CO2, etc). But, neither is a stagnant tank good for the plants. Maybe just a powerhead? But could that suck fry in?

Thanks!

[RonWill]

Molly, glad you found 'lurking mode' somewhat boring... but what took you so long? :wink:

I'm more a 'fish person' than an 'aquatic gardener', so mine are mostly fish tanks with plants and I'll relate things based on my perspective.

If you've been following recent postings, I've managed to breed those ANN and further acquired another 50 from Asian source, plus another 6 sourced from Europe.

Even with 50 ANNs, there's still not much to look at... similar to 10 cardinal tetras in a 100gal tank! Hence the only reason why they're still in tank partitions is that I'm conditioning them for breeding!

I'd like to later on, move them to their 15gal dedicated tank. To have them in a 30gal is urm... like looking for needles in a hay stack! Furthermore, with these hugging the surface, your 30gal will still look unoccupied, thus my reluctance to a 'largish' tank.

A air-lift UGF or RUGF with sponge prefilter on the powerhead will work for me since I'm not limited/bothered by CO2 loss. The setup won't be rigged for CO2 fertilization in the first place! Plants like crypts, vals, ferns and mosses still thrive in such setups... and it keep things simple for me.

If you prefer powerhead-aided circulation, by all means fit a prefilter that's fry-safe. Downside is you'll probably have to clean the prefilter more often!

I've come to realize that with ANNs, there's no such thing as 'have your cake and eat it'... it's high expectations to desire a setup that pleases both ANNs and plants, but "never try, never know" :wink:

oh... and keep us updated. I'll jump in if it works for you!

[LittleMousling]

So you think keeping them in the 10 would be better, particularly aestetically speaking? I see your point (although personally I'm a big fan of big Cardinal schools in big tanks!), but I had heard that in the smaller tanks, they might be less likely to breed. This is a phenomenon I've observed in WCMMs and Danios, especially - despite being prolific egglayers, if the tank is fully stocked, there will be no fry. No fertilized eggs, even, in many cases. Obviously, non-annual or not, I want to breed these guys, and I'd rather not restrict that.
All right, then, follow-up question: I've heard reports of permanent setups with these fish specifically that involved "small, peaceful, non-predatory" species. My thinking is they probably were using pencilfish or something like that. Will, say, Ember Tetras or Pygmy Cories eat fry/eggs/harass adults or fry? Or is there a good Killie species they could be combined with that wouldn't eat eggs and would stay more in the middle, Australes perhaps? I do want to have fry in-tank, but a high survival rate isn't important, just some survival.
As to lurking, I know, I know; on some forums I post daily, and on some I just sit back and watch the masters at work, and this is the latter!

[RonWill]

So you think keeping them in the 10 would be better, particularly aestetically speaking?

Molly, IMHO and depending on how many ANN you wish to keep, a 10~15 would suit them best... I'm thinking along the line of an Amazonian biotope tho.

IDK of any reported captivity breeding of Cardinals... I understand that, unlike Neon tetras, those available to the hobby are mostly collected from the wild (could be wrong about this) but you're spot on with WCMM*. With these, I'd rather use a smallish tank... 6gal perhaps, stuff it with moss and remove the 2 trios after a week. Incubation for these are about 10 days and you'll see little fellas at the surface. Let me take a pic of my WCMM fry and you'll see they're tiny too!

Danios, OTOH, are more predatory than WCMMs and best left to breed over 2~3 layers of marbles, where the non-adhesive eggs will slip through and not get eaten. Danios are gegarious and will harass the hell of of ANNs

Obviously, non-annual or not, I want to breed these guys, and I'd rather not restrict that.

Then I suppose you've already read the breeding thread? Sometimes we over complicate things when simple basics will do... even I'm surprised.

For ANN companion fishes, I wouldn't use pencil fish. Closer observations make me believe them to be opportunistic feeders or as Wright Huntley puts it, the "Din-din" rule applies... if it fits, it's din-din! :wink:

I would much prefer pygmy cories, which I'm also breeding, although Benny told me that these buggers eat eggs too... bummer! But if I'm looking for some and not high fry survival, I'll still go with pygmies. I'll just have to make sure there's enough floaters with long and bushy root systems for the ANNs to lay their eggs in. BTW, the floaters while filling up the surface, will also help to minimize CO2 dispersal.

Or is there a good Killie species they could be combined with that wouldn't eat eggs and would stay more in the middle, Australes perhaps?

Mature AUS are around 5cm while ANN are around 3, so it's likely that the smaller ones will be picked on. Healthy AUS have good appetites and will out-compete slower, shyer ANNs... sounds like a catch-22!

FWIW, do continue posting and I'll learn along with you.

* WCMM = White Cloud Mountain Minnows (for those who're wondering :wink: )

[LittleMousling]

Sorry if I wasn't clear - what I meant was, when I've bred WCMMs and Danios in the past, I find that they're less likely to breed if the tank is fully stocked, ie 6 WCMMs in a planted 5 gal. In a lightly stocked tank, of course, they're absolute rabbits (and the world's cutest fry). I wasn't suggesting them as tankmates, just trying to extrapolate from that my worry that breeding or fry survival would be hindered by a smaller tank.

Okay, australes are out, pencil fish are out, Pygmy cories a slight possibility, if the annulatus are in the 30 (obviously if they end up in the 10 it'll be a species tank). Well, I'm tempted to just wait; if it looks terrifically empty (although who needs fish in a heavily planted tank, eh?), I can always worry about adding tankmates later.

Thanks for all your help, if I have any more questions I know where to ask!

[RonWill]

what I meant was, when I've bred WCMMs and Danios in the past, I find that they're less likely to breed if the tank is fully stocked, ie 6 WCMMs in a planted 5 gal. In a lightly stocked tank, of course, they're absolute rabbits (and the world's cutest fry)

Oops... that's one senior moment... but you're absolutely right!

Well, I'm tempted to just wait; if it looks terrifically empty (although who needs fish in a heavily planted tank, eh?)

ouch... that's one below the belt, but I wish I could say, "who needs plants when I have a tankful of beautiful fishes"... but we both know it doesn't work that way!

For now, go get those ANNs... then come back and bug the hell outta me. Don't lurk for too long now 'ya hear?

[LittleMousling]

Hey, one other thing - you wrote the grindal worm page here, right? I noticed my favorite culture material was missing. Coconut matting won't rot or need to be changed, and IME doesn't crash. Great stuff.

[RonWill]

Molly, I used coir or cocopeat over fibre mat as it was cheaper in bulk pack. Cocopeat should be similar in that it's more pH stable than peat/spaghnum moss and doesn't turn anaerobic so readily.

I'm beginning to like the synthetic-media method since it's cleaner and easier to maintain. Have you tried that already? Give it a go and update me at the Grindal thread.

BTW, given our not-so-cool weather, that itself contributes more to culture crashes than choice of materials used.

<packing up & heading home, catchcha later>