Our eggs have arrived AGAIN!

[RonWill]

For those who're following the outcome of the egg orders, here's my update, indicated in blue. Fry count as of morning May 26th.

Aphyosemion dargei 'Mbam' (DAR) [in breather bag]
No date info = 9 fry NO CHANGE

Aphyosemion elberti 'Nnen' (ELB) [in breather bag]
No date info = 17 fry NO CHANGE *

Aphyosemion elberti 'Ndouzem' (ELB) [in breather bag]
No date info = 19 fry NO CHANGE *

Aphyosemion poliaki 'Ekona' (PLK) [in peat]
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
1 fry
040523 + 1 fry = 2 fry
040526 + 3 fry = 5 fry

Chromaphyosemion splendopluere 'Bamukong Ombe' (SPP) [in peat]
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
0 fry
040523 = 2 fry

RongSheng
Aphyosemion christyi 'Lobaye' (CHR) [in peat]
Coll: May 12. Peat dunked 040520
0 fry
040523 = 8 fry
040526 + 1 fry = 9 fry

Replacement egg Paraphyosemion gardneri 'Lafia' [Rongsheng / Lily] [in breather bag]
No date info = 10 fry NO CHANGE

Won Bid Aphyosemion elberti 'Nange Eboko' (ELB) [in peat]
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
040526 = 1 fry

Won Bid Chrom splendopluere 'Tiko' (SPP) [in peat]
Coll: May 12~15th. Peat dunked 040520
7 fry
040523 + 3 fry = 10 fry
040526 + 1 fry = 11 fry

[stormhawk]

Update on the ZNT:

Simpsonichthys zonatus (ZNT) [in peat]
30 Eggs
Collected: 12 April 04

250504 - 23 fry
270504 - 19 fry (1 casualty in fry container, 3 dead fry in hatching tray of which one was a stillbirth.. eggcase still attached.. )

Fry doing very well at this moment. Just gorged themselves on BBS. Very fat and greedy fellas.

[RonWill]

Hi all,
Here's another fry count as of morning June 1st. Updates in blue.

Aphyosemion dargei 'Mbam' (DAR) [in breather bag]
No date info = 9 fry NO CHANGE

Aphyosemion elberti 'Nnen' (ELB) [in breather bag]
No date info = 17 fry NO CHANGE

Aphyosemion elberti 'Ndouzem' (ELB) [in breather bag]
No date info = 19 fry NO CHANGE

Aphyosemion poliaki 'Ekona' (PLK) [in peat]
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
1 fry
040523 + 1 fry = 2 fry
040526 + 3 fry = 5 fry
040601 + 1 fry = 6 fry

Chromaphyosemion splendopluere 'Bamukong Ombe' (SPP) [in peat]
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
0 fry
040523 = 2 fry NO CHANGE

RongSheng
Aphyosemion christyi 'Lobaye' (CHR) [in peat]
Coll: May 12. Peat dunked 040520
0 fry
040523 = 8 fry
040526 + 1 fry = 9 fry NO CHANGE

Replacement egg Paraphyosemion gardneri 'Lafia' [Rongsheng / Lily] [in breather bag]
No date info = 10 fry NO CHANGE

Won Bid Aphyosemion elberti 'Nange Eboko' (ELB) [in peat]
Coll: May 15. Peat dunked 040520
040526 + 1 fry = 1 fry
040601 + 1 belly slider = 2 fry


Won Bid Chrom splendopluere 'Tiko' (SPP) [in peat]
Coll: May 12~15th. Peat dunked 040520
7 fry
040523 + 3 fry = 10 fry
040526 + 1 fry = 11 fry
040601 + 3 'curly wurly' + 1 still birth fry = 14 fry

David et al, what are the possible causes that prevents a hatchling from 'straightening up'? My incubation/hatching sequence is standardized and any insight is most appreciated.

'Curly wurly' fry (Chrom splendopluere 'Tiko')

Dead fry at right of pic

[turaco]

Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Nguti' incubation period is 5-8 weeks in peat with temp range 68-74F...

Wet the peat in 3rd week(1st June). 6 fry hatched within 15-30mins :wink: . Together with those in breather bag, I have 9 fry.

Pohsan, you might consider wetting your 'Bakebe' early. I kept mine in air-con office too. Can't really tell if they have eyed up as the eggs are quite dark in colour.

[PohSan]

Hi Gan,
Thanks for the advice. I will be oversea from tomorrow to Sunday. I will wet them by the end of this week.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

[stormhawk]

Here's an early pic of the Simp. zonatus fry. Ash grey in colour.

They changed colour from an ash grey base to a slightly clear colouration. Feeding well on a diet of daphnias and BBS.

Current fry count : 17 fry out of 23 that hatched.

[zmzfam]

Update:

Aphyosemion coeleste 'GBG 93-2' (COL) [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - 2 living frys, 3 dead frys, some eggs
25 May 2004 - 2 dead frys, 3 eggs fungus, 3 eggs left
28 May 2004 - No survivors, rest of eggs fungus

Aphyosemion marginatum 'Bifoum' (MRG) [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - 19 frys

Callopanchax occidentale 'Mangata' (OCC) [in peat]
still under incubation

Rivulus agilae 'Mont de Mahury' (AGI) [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - 21 frys

Replacement Aphyosemion australe BWSG 97 / 24 'Port Gentil' [in peat]
Collection May 16 - still in peat
26 May 2004 - wetted peat
27 May 2004 - 3 frys, deformed and dead a few hours later
29 Jun 2004 - 5 eggs fungus
02 June 2004 - 1 fry


[Rashid]
Replacement Aphyosemion primigenium GBN 88-10 [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - 5 frys, 8 eggs
01 Jun 2004 - 5 frys, rest of eggs fungus

[stormhawk]

Zul,

I may have an explanation for the loss of the coeleste fries. Was looking through the West African killie site and I read from the coeleste page that this species was found at an altitude of 400m above sea level. That's pretty high and the temperatures recorded during the dry season was roughly between 17 degC and 21 degC. It must have been our tropical climate that caused the deaths of the fry. Our temperatures here can fluctuate anywhere between a cool 24degC to 32degC when its really scorching. My 3ft tank has been registering a temp. of 26.8degC during cold nights and at least 29degC on warm nights.

From the breeding notes section,

Not a prolific spawner. Best kept in cooler water (19-21degC).

Incubation in water takes 2-3 weeks but experiments with semi-dry storing have also shown limited success (probably no more than 3 weeks).

Take pride that you had at least several fry to start with, Ron had a zero hatch the last time round with his COE. Maybe you need to start making a de Bruyn filter. :wink:

[killifishdavid]

David et al, what are the possible causes that prevents a hatchling from 'straightening up'? My incubation/hatching sequence is standardized and any insight is most appreciated.


It sounds like there has been damage to the fishes central nervous system. I do not know why or how this could happen. I will share several
conditions and practices that are normal here for me in my hatchery that seem to be apart from yours.

My hatchery runs a temperature of 19 to 23 degrees most all of the time.
Light levels are quite low through out the hatchery except in our near the planted tanks. Eggs of all species of killifish are either stored in or on top of moist peat, and left there until they are ready to hatch. I have rarely had good success in dunking peat with eggs of non annual or semi annual before they are ready to hatch. Sometimes I will wait until I see the first eggs hatch on top of the peat or look soft and squishy before wetting. Here in my cool hatchery most non annuals will wait for 3 weeks and up to 4 before I find I must wet them. Hatching on eggs that are fully developed is commenced all most immediatly to with in a few hours. I also do not dunk the peat with the eggs, but rather lift the eggs with tweezers from the peat and place them in hatching water. My hatching water is the tea or rinsings from boiled peatmoss and leaves from AuSL.
The water is very dark amber in color, as those of you who recieved the eggs in breather bags could see for your self.

I hope this may be of some help, but it appears to me from the results that sending eyed up eggs in my peat tea water is by far the best method for sending to you in Singapore. Eggs I send to Japan all most all ways are on top of peat in the petri dishes, with very good results. Shipping to China the dish method has similar results as yours in SG. To Europe and South America and Canada the dish method also seems to work well.

[RonWill]

I have rarely had good success in dunking peat with eggs of non annual or semi annual before they are ready to hatch.

David, my observation of peat incubated eggs contradict yours and most, if not all, my peat-incubated eggs did poorly, regardless whether they were australes, gardneri or even SJOs.

I usually water-incubate eggs together with the mops and the eggs from you are dunked with the peat, only because I don't spot eggs very well (excepting the fungused ones).

Your peat/ketapang shipping water has an approx pH of 4.5~5 (according to my Merck pH indicator strips) and the eggs, together with aged tap water, makes up the hatching water which is changed every 3 days or so, with more aged water. By the time hatchlings appear, the water they're hatched into is the same as the grow-out containers.

I hope this may be of some help, but it appears to me from the results that sending eyed up eggs in my peat tea water is by far the best method for sending to you in Singapore.

I have no idea why this is so but we may be stating the obvious, if you can recall my repeated requests for all non-annuals eggs to be shipped in breathers, regardless whether it's mine or for fellow forum members.

For the latest order, there's no change with the 2 elberti 'Nange Eboko' hatchlings (a distant cry from the 3 other ELB species shipped in breathers).

To refresh your memory and following up on the 1st attempt with breathers on 2 dozen Ap. BIT 'Ijebu Ode' developing eggs sent a while back. The result was 24 surviving fry. 12 were Lily's and she received them at about 1cm size. Unfortunately, she lost them in a water change.

My own dozen resulted in 4 trios, are about 2.5cm now and coloring up very nicely. Personally, I hated peat-packed eggs and frankly, David, I wouldn't want my orders sent any other way.

I was hoping to have more favorable numbers to show for the updates but it looks like there's nothing more to add.

[PohSan]

Dear all,
This is my update of the egg. I wet the 'Bakebe' egg on 8th June 2004 and 2 fry has hatched so far.

1) Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Bakebe' (MOE) [13 eggs in peat]
12 June 2004 - 2 fry

2) Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae 'Tinto' [in breather bag]
1 dead fry
1 fungus egg.
8 living fry
Regards,
Ong Poh San

[zmzfam]

Hi folks,

an update for the Aphyosemion marginatum 'Bifoum':

Aphyosemion marginatum 'Bifoum' (MRG) [in breather bag]
23 May 2004 - 19 frys
11 Jun 2004 - 11 frys - counted in the presence of Ronnie
21 Jun 2004 - 1 fry - in the presence of Ronnie also
22 Jun 2004 - existing fry dead

I passed the fry to Ronnie on the 11 June as I was going on a 1 week holiday. On collecting the frys, both of us (Ronnie and myself) were shocked to see only 1 fry left in the container. I'm not expressing my frustration about getting back only 1 fry and neither am I doubting Ron's capability in handling frys - if not I won't be getting back my original 21 Riv. agilae frys.

The problem is that the last existing fry had a bent spine. Unfortunately, I did not take any photos before the fry passed away. Anyway, I showed Ron the fry before bringing it back.

[RonWill]

I'm not expressing my frustration about getting back only 1 fry and neither am I doubting Ron's capability in handling frys - if not I won't be getting back my original 21 Riv. agilae frys.

The problem is that the last existing fry had a bent spine. Unfortunately, I did not take any photos before the fry passed away. Anyway, I showed Ron the fry before bringing it back.

Zul, if you go look at the pics I uploaded to the FryCount Gallery, you'd understand why I'm not in a mood to count my fry. None of the 'curly wurly' fry that I mention earlier survived, plus, there were many others with spinal abnormalty.

Of the 11 ELB Nnen fry above; 8 are 'kinky'*, 1 is 'curly' and 2 is stunted

ELB Ndouzem casualty
Deformed fry won't survive long and even their 'kinkiness' are obvious when dead.

I couldn't, for the life of me, understand what happened since I go through the same routine with the other fry I'm currently outgrowing. Perhaps those more experienced than I can shed some light on what I'm doing wrong, please.

As the written word have a strange way of being misinterpreted these days, I'll let the pictures speak for themselves and leave the readers to arrive at their own conclusion.

I have little regrets in life but do feel sorry for Rong Sheng because his first attempt didn't go too well and this time, all his Aphyosemion christyi 'Lobaye' were 'kinky' and none survive past 2 weeks. My eyes aren't as good and the fry were small, else I would have reported back sooner.

Although a glut for punishment, I still cringe at the thought of zero survivors for Chrom splendopluere 'Tiko' and A. dargei 'Mbam'.

<sigh...> Looks like I won't have many species to breed in the coming months

* 'Kinky' as in kinked spines (and nothing to do in bed!)

[timebomb]

Ronnie,

I checked my fish manual on kinked spines and it says there that's it probably due to either crossbreeding or environmental factors like metal toxins in the water and fluctuating temperatures. No mention is made of inbreeding. I think we can rule out crossbreeding and metal toxins but I'm not sure of fluctuating temperatures. It's pretty warm for us compared to where KillifishDavid lives but the temperature here does not fluctuate much. Heck, it's hot the whole year round.

Thank goodness the fish I got from the last mass egg-buying exercise do not exhibit the same kinked bodies. I'll take some pictures and post them soon.

Loh K L

[turaco]

I have killies in office & home. Temperature in office is around 24C while home can be easily 28-30C. Over a period of a year, those in office(fry & adult) always last longer & give less problem compare to those at home. I'm afraid those curly fry are the result of our warm weather lately.

[RonWill]

Gan, I'm afraid I can't agree entirely with you on that. Of the 20 A. striatum eggs you gave me, there're now 16 fry. 2 eggs went bad, 1 still-birth and 1 fry... urm... squirted out of the turkey baster and landed somewhere (and I couldn't find the sucker!) As of this morning, I still have 16 fry.

The water incubation period/hatching of these striatum coincide with the new egg's arrival and all were incubated on the glass lid above my middle tank.

Round containers were used for growout and IIRC, did nothing out of the norm. I can understand if some fry are fragile/sensitive but not when it's almost across the board.

I really need time to think this one over. Anyone else would like to hazard a guess?

BTW if you want to add the 'degree-symbol' to the temp, eg 24C, press/hold the 'alt key' and type 0186 (zero one eight six) and release the 'alt key'. You'll end up with 24ºC! :wink:

[hobbit6003]

Hi Ron and all,

In my opinion, such developmental anomaly nearly right from the onset of birth, can only be due to a genetic predisposition.

Whilst metal toxins can cause such a spinal deformities (both scoliosis and kyphosis), you'd probably find that some other concurrent batches of frys would have contained them, and not just to a certain batch/batches.

Of course, if the frys are born alright and slowly develop spinal deformities, there're other considerations, such as nutrient deficiencies or disease (eg. fish TB).

As for fluctuation to water temp causing this, I've yet come across any literature mentioning such an occurence, nor can I think of how this can cause deformities to days old frys.

Kwek Leong, did the manual of yours mention if the fluctuation is a seasonal or a diurnal (day and night) fluctuation?

As for a genetic cause, such an inheritance of the so-called 'bad' genes, is usually due to excessive in-breeding, resulting in the expression of defective genes within a grossly diminished gene pool.

Cheers,

Kenny

[timebomb]

Kwek Leong, did the manual of yours mention if the fluctuation is a seasonal or a diurnal (day and night) fluctuation?

Kenny,

I'm reproducing the text on "Development Problems and Hereditary Diseases" from my book, "The manual of fish health". It says:

Caused by: Crossbreeding of certain strains of fish can give rise to fish with an abnormal appearance. Various types of environmental factors, including pollution with metals and pesticides, unsuitable temperatures and low oxygen levels, can also influence the development of eggs and young fish. Some tumours may be inherited from parent fish and certain deformities can be nutritional in origin.

Obvious symtoms: Symptoms vary tremendously, from abnormalities in coloration and unusual fins to missing eyes, deformed jaws and loss of swimbladder (producing so called "belly sliders"). Siamese twins is another manifestation of this sort of problem.

Occurence of the disease: These symptoms may occur when fishkeepers are crossing certain strains of fish, or when the eggs or fry are kept in unfavourable water conditions. Fluctuating temperatures can cause spine deformities in fish fry, for example, Siamese twins is a common abnormality of livebearing fish, one of the twins usually being very much smaller than the other. Adding chemicals to the water containing eggs or fry may alter their development, as may the presence of heavy metal toxins, such as copper or other pollutants.

Loh K L

[RonWill]

... still cringe at the thought of zero survivors for Chrom splendopluere 'Tiko' and A. dargei 'Mbam'.

Some corrections here... I do have survivors of the SPP 'Tiko', 8 fry as counted this afternoon. The stack was in the rear of the lowest rack and usually "what's out of sight, is out of mind"



'The Stacks'


Many apologies.

[hobbit6003]

Fluctuating temperatures can cause spine deformities in fish fry,
Loh K L

Hi Kwek Leong,

THanks for the info! Whose the author of the book?

Cheers,

Kenny