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Thread: Our eggs have arrived AGAIN!

  1. #41
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    Kenny,

    The authors are Dr Chris Andrews, Adrian Exell and Dr Neville Carrington. I read the introduction and their credentials are impeccable.

    Loh K L

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit6003
    Hi Ron and all,

    In my opinion, such developmental anomaly nearly right from the onset of birth, can only be due to a genetic predisposition.
    My opinion tends to differ, Kenny. While there may be some tendency for one strain or collection to react more dramatically to external toxins or injury, deformities like those shown are usually induced by some external insult or hybridization (outcrossing, not inbreeding).

    Whilst metal toxins can cause such a spinal deformities (both scoliosis and kyphosis), you'd probably find that some other concurrent batches of frys would have contained them, and not just to a certain batch/batches.

    Of course, if the frys are born alright and slowly develop spinal deformities, there're other considerations, such as nutrient deficiencies or disease (eg. fish TB).

    As for fluctuation to water temp causing this, I've yet come across any literature mentioning such an occurence, nor can I think of how this can cause deformities to days old frys.

    Kwek Leong, did the manual of yours mention if the fluctuation is a seasonal or a diurnal (day and night) fluctuation?
    Untergasser also says that keeping fish at the wrong temperature or sudden fluctuations can cause injury like this.

    As for a genetic cause, such an inheritance of the so-called 'bad' genes, is usually due to excessive in-breeding, resulting in the expression of defective genes within a grossly diminished gene pool.
    In killifish this is almost never a cause, IMHO. 95% of killifish are in such restricted locations and numbers that they are already highly inbred and defective genes have long since weeded themselves out. Inbreeding gets a bad name for mostly cultural reasons, but it is outcrossing (hybridization) that can induce the worst deformities, like parrot fish.

    Inbreeding can certainly increase the expression frequency of a recessive defect, but that is a rarity in killifish. Such defects may arise spontaneously by mutation, but the effect is rarely a bent spine. Usually it is a color or pattern variation, or a reproductive failure of some kind, IME.

    Inbreeding is a most useful tool for eliminating hybrid genes and for setting a desirable color or pattern. I sort of hate to see blanket condemnation of it among those making choices of brood stock. It is another useful tool for the breeder, when properly understood.

    In our wild-type killies, I like to see maintenance of as broad a gene pool as is practical, so we keep them with what they started with as much as possible. Most went through a genetic bottleneck when collected and introduced. It behooves us to keep as much of what is left as we can.

    We also have many "aquarium strains" so there are lots of species to tinker with, for those who have an uncontrolled desire to "improve" them.

    Some select for albinism, and some go for a purer color or bigger fins. That doesn't happen very well, without deliberate inbreeding and line breeding. Those never cause defects, and only very rarely cause an unexpected recessive to appear. Knowing it is present is the first step to eliminating it.

    HTH

    Wright
    01 760 872-3995
    805 Valley West Circle
    Bishop, CA 93514 USA

  3. #43
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    eggs over easy or sunnyside up

    Wright,
    I would like to ask what has better insulation qualities from temperature
    fluctuations: breather bags of water, or little petri dishes of moist peat?

    Not knowing for sure, I would vote for the breather bags of water. I've
    gotten eggs packed in 35mm film canisters with water that have yielded
    100% hatch rate (Aplocheilus SRP/03, BTW, do you want some of these
    when they sex out?) and will be checking for any spinal anomalies.

    Always great to hear from you,

    Bill
    farang9

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    Re: eggs over easy or sunnyside up (+ Scotch and Water diet)

    Quote Originally Posted by farang9
    Wright,
    I would like to ask what has better insulation qualities from temperature
    fluctuations: breather bags of water, or little petri dishes of moist peat?

    Not knowing for sure, I would vote for the breather bags of water. I've
    gotten eggs packed in 35mm film canisters with water that have yielded
    100% hatch rate (Aplocheilus SRP/03, BTW, do you want some of these
    when they sex out?) and will be checking for any spinal anomalies.
    Hi Bill,

    It isn't insulation as much as it is thermal inertia due to mass. A bag of water always wins over a petrie dish of peat, in that situation, as it just takes more calories to change the temp of a lot of water, compared to damp peat. [Costs more to ship, tho.]

    Don't need any Aplos, right now, but thanks.

    Your question reminded me of my Scotch and Water diet theory.

    A shot of Scotch whiskey has about 75 calories.

    One colorie is the heat required to raise the temperature of one gram (1 cc) of water by one degree C.

    Put the Scotch in a 200 cc glass of water with melting ice. That puts it at 0C.

    When you get rid of that cold water, your body must have given up enough calories to heat it to about 37C. 200 X 37 is 7400 calories your body loses to heating the water. Subtract the original 75 calories, and the system means you drop 7325 calories for every time you drink a tall Scotch and Water! *

    Cheers,

    Wright
    _____________
    * If you believe this, I can get you some great shares in the Brooklyn Bridge. :wink:
    01 760 872-3995
    805 Valley West Circle
    Bishop, CA 93514 USA

  5. #45
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    Re: eggs over easy or sunnyside up (+ Scotch and Water diet)


  6. #46
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    Hi Wright,

    Thanks for your input! :-)

    Yeah, as I was discussing with some of the avid local killie breeders here, I've also questioned whether a diminished genetic pool would be applicable to the killies, since they've existed for generations in restricted locale. I guess you've just answered my query on this. And yes, it makes sense.

    I'd do also agree with you that not all in-breeding is bad. THe problem is when one do not recognise that there's a problem and continue to breed a fish along that line, and got the genes 'fixed'.


    Cheers,

    Kenny

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    Bent Spine

    An update of the my Paraphyosemion mirabile moense 'Bakebe' and Paraphyosemion mirabilis traudae 'Tinto'.

    So far I have 8 'Tinto' fry and 4 'Bakebe' fry. And they are keep in those round takeaway container with a handful of java moss.

    Today, when I did a water change from the fry container. I took a close look at the fry and was quite shock to discover that 6 out of the 8 'Tinto' fry actually having different degree of bent / deformed spine problem. The condition is pretty much the same as Ronnie's ELB Nnen fry. One of the most serious case even has deformed spine / body shape when observed from the side view.

    Besides that, 2 out of 4 'Bekebe' fry is having the same problem as well.

    I took some pictures to show the deformed fry but I left the camera cable in my office. I will post up the photos on Monday.

    It is quite sad to see this kind of deformed fish, especially when numerous time and effort has been spent.

    Regards,
    Ong Poh San

  8. #48
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    Looking back over this topic, there are just too many cases of bent spines in babies in too many species.

    That suggests to me an infectious agent, such as intestinal parasites.

    When afflicted babies die, either freeze or preserve in alcohol or formaldehyde and get them to a local University biology dept. where you can try to get someone to do a necropsy and see if they have hexamita, columnaris, or some less common affliction that is interfering with nutrition. Exact diagnosis is vital, as treatments differ widely for flagellates or nematodes or ???

    Our desert springs to the south of here have an invasion of a tapeworm that causes such problems in small fish. They probably spread from spring to spring via birds. Flubendazol works on them.

    This parasite thing is just a wild guess, but too many babies have been hit, so a direct attack would seem to be worth the trouble. Find exactly what is causing it. Recruit a smart young biology grad student, if you can. Otherwise find a veterinarian the local fish farmers trust.

    Meanwhile, be sure you are feeding enough variety. Avoid any dry foods left open for long in your climate, as they can quickly lose, via humidity, all useful vitamins and even develop fungus aflatoxins that can poison the babies.

    You can gut load bbs after they have molted a couple of times (become longer than they are wide) with various emulsified supplements. Baby vitamins can be soaked into Grindal feed. Microworm cultures can be spiked with liquid baby vitamins. Feed green water from time of hatching.

    I'm even growing green water in my bbs hatch water! If the bbs don't get harvested for an extra day, they lose most of their yolk nutrition, but pick up some different nutrients from the green water organisms.

    You guys cannot afford to keep losing species, so keep posting any kind of useful information or results.

    Wright
    01 760 872-3995
    805 Valley West Circle
    Bishop, CA 93514 USA

  9. #49
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    Sad to say all my Simp. zonatus fry are pretty much gone. I've lost all 17 of the remaining fry and all had the bent-spine problem before they died. The weirdest bit is that my Simp. flammeus fry are OK, and these have been housed in containers with water that is at least pH 7.4 which is very much the standard pH for most of my tanks with the exceptions of those with ADA Aquasoil in them. Those have hit pH levels of 6.0 and have somewhat stabilised.

    I'm really perplexed at what's causing this bent-spine effect on the fry. All of them were straight immediately after birth and did not show this problem until about a week later. They were fed a diet of microworm, BBS and sifted daphnia.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

  10. #50
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    Hi guys,

    New in this forum, just wondering how your fries are doing.... any updates... perhaps some pairs for sale?

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    Hi "What's-your-name" killiesmania,

    I've had some problems with water coming in from the mains that coincide with arrival of our 2nd Egg Order and don't know whether others had similar problems, but survival rate from the 2nd Egg Order was dismal. For reasons I don't understand, the incidence of spinal curvature was also quite high.

    Aphyosemion dargei 'Mbam' (DAR) - [NONE]
    Chromaphyosemion poliaki 'Ekona' CI-01 (PLK) [1 MALE]
    Chromaphyosemion splendopluere 'Bamukong Ombe' (SPP) [NONE]
    Aphyosemion elberti 'Nnen' (ELB) [NONE]
    Aphyosemion elberti 'Ndouzem' (ELB) [NONE]
    Paraphyosemion gardneri 'Lafia' [1 MALE] (possibly 2 surviving females with Lily)

    As for initiating another group egg order, I'm afraid someone else will have to step forward. Despite our best intentions, to perk up interest and also to share shipping costs for newcomers, response has been lack lustre.

    In private capacity, I initiated more overseas orders within a core-group, brought in live-killies, more eggs and have new fry in grow-out tanks. Will soon have mates for the GAR 'Lafia' (plus a few other splendopluere, Aphyosemion, Simpsonichthys and Rivulus species).

    When I've sorted out compatible pairs from these extra fishes, members will see them in the 'Trading Post'.

    Those wanting sub-adult (or adult) fishes that were raised from the egg order will be disappointed as these will likely be retained as breeding stock.

    For those sitting on the fence, wanting only the 'exotic' and 'rare', this thread pretty much sums up how I feel.
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

  12. #52
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    Hi Ronnie,

    Thank you for sharing, sad to hear that the survival rate of the eggs from overseas was dismal.... perhaps like you said, it was due to the water conditions and like some others mentioned, to the fluctuation in temperature (whether it was during the transportation or otherwise).

    Anyhow, I just placed an order for some pairs namely Aphyosemion Sjorstedti, Aphyosemion Splendopleure and Aphyoplatys Duboisi from a LFS, just that they have not gotten back to me on the availabiliy. Also, the owner mentioned that they would be getting some pairs from Malaysia and would be arriving on Sat. Come Sat, I will up date you guys on whether it was a show or no show...

    I also bought a pair of Nothobranchius Korthausae from the shop. Though I dont know if I identified the species correctly... It happened that they erased the name from their container after I bought the pair...

    So how about the others? Anyone with greater success? Does anyone elso know of other places to get killie pairs? Locally or overseas? Perhaps plan a buying trip somewhere?

  13. #53
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    The name is David by the way....

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    David,

    do note that most, if not all, killies brought in by lfs lacks collection code. If you see Ronnie's list, the collection code is after the species name.

    The naming/writing convention is for the 1st letter of the genus to be capitalized while the species is in lower caps and all to be in italics e.g.

    Fundulopanchax sjoestedti (NOT Aphyosemion sjorstedti)
    Aphyosemion splendopleure
    Aphyoplatys duboisi


    Not mean to be picky but it helps in getting certain things right.

    Here's a good sight for the non-annuals : http://www.killifish.f9.co.uk/Killif...site/Index.htm
    Zulkifli

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    Zulkifli,

    Thanks for the correction. Anyhow I new to this nomanclature of naming killie fish... was wondering what does the collection code actually mean? Thanks for the clarification.

  16. #56
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    Okay here's an explanation of a "regular" killifish name.

    For example:

    Micromoema xiphophora "Isla Raton" RDB 92/22

    In this case, Micromoema is the genus name, xiphophora is the species name, "Isla Raton" is the location name, RDB 92/22 is the collection code.

    RDB here stands for Roger D. Brousseau. 92/22 means collected in the year 1992, collection/location number 22. FYI, this scientific name + location + collection code is for the Swordtail Killie. A Google search will throw up several pictures.

    Note: Different collectors have different methods of appending location and codes to the fish they collect. It is absolutely necessary to maintain location codes to ensure that the population stays "pure". Species name will change, location and collection codes will not. :wink:
    _____________

    I hope this helps in letting you understand "standard" killifish nomenclature for us killie folk. :wink:
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

  17. #57
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    David, we also have this shortform tag to identify killies easily. Examples below.

    SJO - Fundulopanchax sjoestedti
    RAC - Nothobranchius rachovii
    FUM - Simpsonichthys fulminantis
    XIP - Rivulus xiphidius

    There are many more but too many to list. The 3 letter tag is taken from letters present in the species name - RAC from RAChovii. Get it? In some cases the tags would have been taken by a species described earlier so we make do by switching some of the letters.

    As for Aphyoplatys duboisi, its seldom imported or offered for sale. Pretty uncommon to rare in the hobby. Good luck in sourcing for some. There are however, a tank full of Epiplatys togolensis at Choong Sua Aquarium if you can't wait. These are quite big in size.
    Fish.. Simply Irresistable
    Back to Killies... slowly.

  18. #58
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    hmmm....

    Saw the pic... doesnt look like what I have in mind....Thanks all the same...

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    David, if you are like me, preferring 'WYSIWYG' (What You See Is What You Get), there will be no surprises with 'coded' fishes.

    That's precisely why I can confidently order eggs and fishes of known populations/collection, from sellers living thousands of miles away without seeing the actual breeders, and STILL know that the fry will grow up to be like their parents.

    Search for images on them online and more likely than not, it's the same fish, barring minor variability within populations.

    That said, which image did you see that doesn't matches what you have in mind?
    I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
    Ronnie Lee

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    Collection Codes

    Quote Originally Posted by zmzfam
    David,

    do note that most, if not all, killies brought in by lfs lacks collection code. If you see Ronnie's list, the collection code is after the species name.

    The naming/writing convention is for the 1st letter of the genus to be capitalized while the species is in lower caps and all to be in italics e.g.

    Fundulopanchax sjoestedti (NOT Aphyosemion sjorstedti)
    Aphyosemion splendopleure
    Aphyoplatys duboisi


    Not mean to be picky but it helps in getting certain things right.

    Here's a good sight for the non-annuals : http://www.killifish.f9.co.uk/Killif...site/Index.htm
    Hi guys,

    finally decide to stop lurking. I was just surfing Aquabid looking for some eggs and just happened to stumble on this. A newbie myself, but just wish to highlight that collection code could mean a world of difference.

    Taken from Aquabid (Pillet's the seller) :

    N. eggersi « Rufiji TAN 95/7 »



    N. eggersi « Bagamoyo »


    Mod's Note: Edited IMG tags. Refer to next post.

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