Worms

[whuntley]

Camellanus worms keep getting associated with blackworms and Tubifex. Neither of those is a direct vector or carrier, so I wonder why the myth persists?

Perhaps the appearance is so close to Tubifex that the intuitive leap should be forgiven.

The beasties certainly could come in with poorly-washed worms, particularly if the water contained cyclops or other copepods or crustaceans that are known intermediate vectors. It is trivially easy to wash those out of small batches though.

The principal danger I have found after 60 years of using such worms has to do with their richness causing water fouling. As ammonia is sharply increased by the richer fish feces, the tendency for invasion of Velvet, Cotton-Mouth, etc. goes way up.

Gill cells damaged by the ammonia burns are readily invaded by such parasites and bacteria. With the best of "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" logic, the fishkeeper jumps to the conclusion that the worms brought in the destructive pest.

I think folks miss the use of a lot of great conditioning foods by believing such myths. All they need to do is watch those water changes diligently, when feeding conditioning foods.

Sermon mode <OFF> :wink:

Wright

[Debbbear]

Wright,
Best put your sermon mode back on.....
Then how does one get camallanus worms if one washes live food well?
I have been feeding my fish live foods from the tax ditches and tubs that I have outside. But every once in a while I worm all my fish. As all animals here on the farm get wormed regularly.Things with worms are opened to all sickness.
I have only seen the camallanus worms in my tanks once,that was when I bought a wild fish.
Now after doing more research on camallanus worms,I learned that these worms are an indirect species meaning that they are livebearers
and then are eaten by a copepod or other crustacean,which then the fish eats.So if those guys are very small at first ,Is there a possibility that we can also infect the fish with our hands after handling animals? or after playing with the goldfish pond outside?
more sermon please....

[whuntley]

Wright,
Best put your sermon mode back on.....
Then how does one get camallanus worms if one washes live food well?
I have been feeding my fish live foods from the tax ditches and tubs that I have outside. But every once in a while I worm all my fish. As all animals here on the farm get wormed regularly.Things with worms are opened to all sickness.
I have only seen the camallanus worms in my tanks once,that was when I bought a wild fish.
Now after doing more research on camallanus worms,I learned that these worms are an indirect species meaning that they are livebearers
and then are eaten by a copepod or other crustacean,which then the fish eats.So if those guys are very small at first ,Is there a possibility that we can also infect the fish with our hands after handling animals? or after playing with the goldfish pond outside?
more sermon please....

Invariably, I believe it is from infected fish that we get from the wild or from the LFS.

IDK about handling passing them around, but doubt it.

Like Velvet, that may kill 90% of its victims without a sign of skin problems, the lack of visible evidence, until we spot a worm hanging out, lets infected fish spread the problem long before we know it.

[Whee! I do love run-on sentences, don't I?]

I'm a lousy one to ask, because I have never had a verified infection of Camellanus in my fishrooms.

I'm very worried that we have a piscine tapeworm working its way through the desert springs south of here. This is something hobbyists have not had to worry about. I guess it moves from spring-to-spring on birds. I plan to get a good anti-helmenthic, soon, so I can be sure I don't spread it to anywhere else.

I do enjoy keeping some unusual local fishes, and I don't want that to have a negative impact on my friends. [Want some hybrid Tui Chubs?}

Wright

[RonWill]

Camellanus worms keep getting associated with blackworms and Tubifex. Neither of those is a direct vector or carrier, so I wonder why the myth persists?

Perhaps the appearance is so close to Tubifex that the intuitive leap should be forgiven

Wright, the folks here are un-nerved by the prospect of pathogens and stuff, introduced with the feeding of tubifex. Any 'sermons' that can debunk this urban myth will be most appreciated.

I feed tubifex almost daily, together with other live foods, and my biggest problem is not camellanus, but bacterial infection. It's worst in the main system even though there's sump filtration and UV units at the output. (another reason why I'm breaking away, in favor of separated specie-tanks)

The other minor problem is a worm I cannot identify... (clickable images)



They don't bother the fishes but hangs around mostly at the waterline, at plant roots and under floaters. Appears almost like a flatworm and less of a leech.

Jian Yang kept going "holly moley... here's another one!" while helping to empty out an old established tank. I hope it's not the 'piscine tapeworm' mentioned (what damage does it do anyway?)

BTW, what is "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" logic? and oh yes, leave the 'Sermon-mode button' in the 'ON' position... we're all ears! :wink:

[whuntley]

BTW, what is "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" logic? and oh yes, leave the 'Sermon-mode button' in the 'ON' position... we're all ears! :wink:

"Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is one of the more fundamental logic fallacies. It translates from old Latin as "After this, therefore because of this."

I can leave the Sermon Mode switch <ON>, until you guys tell me you have had it with my bloviation.

Wright

[timebomb]

I can leave the Sermon Mode switch <ON>,

Wright, we all love a good sermon, especially when it's delivered by someone with a white beard

I learnt what I know about the Camallanus from my book, "The Manual of Fish Health". My first encounter with it was when some of my Notho korthausae were infected. Those were fish that came as eggs to me so the worms couldn't have possibly come from wild fish. I do believe they came with the Tubifex.

Loh K L

[whuntley]

Some more random sermonizing on the excellence of slimey creatures.

60 years ago I could buy nice tubificids from the local angellfish farm, where they kept them in running-water troughs for a week or so before selling them. The flushing was necessesary, I was told, because they were collected from raw sewage ditches across the border, down in Mexico.

The hemoglobin level made them much more resistant to drowning than our current CA blackworms. I kept a liter (well, a quart) jar in the toilet tank, with a few ounces of Tubifex and they kept for weeks, getting frequent natural water changes. Chlorine doesn't bother them at all.

That first wife tolerated them. Maybe because she may not have even known they were there.

That angel farm was in the process of becoming one of the first places to ever breed Discus, and I was allowed to look at their breeding pair from a distance. You can bet tubificids were a major part of their diet. I still love the wild natural forms of Discus, but think most of what we have here, now, are about as tasteful as pink plastic flamingos on the lawn. As a Las Vegas Casino? As a Waikiki Hotel? [My flame shield just went up!]

My second marriage was the start of both a family and a business, so I was obligated to step aside from fish for a few years. That wife never had the joy of feeding worms to anything. No, seriously, her cooking really was great!

When I returned to the hobby, Tubifex were no longer being sold in CA, and all the stores called CA blackworms "Tubiflex." [Yes, with an extra "L" probably to confuse Japanese aquarists. ] I never really found whether the sewer worms were actually outlawed, or if the local worms just drove them off the market.

Blackworms are bigger and fatter than their red cousins, but not as nice a size as smaller killifish like. That means I have to raise Grindals to fill the gap and have something for smaller growing fish to get fat on.

All these nematode cousins are great fish food. IMHO, only mosquito and midge larvae (like glass worms and bloodworms) are better. The main requirement is you must allow for the extra water pollution the fish cause when eating them, and increase your water-change frequency to compensate.

Ronnie mentioned increased bacterial load, but I do not experience that. My blackworms live in the refrigerator (no current wife to upset) and get daily or every-other day water changes in their special worm-keeper boxes. I also rinse them well before feeding them to the fish. I see no problem with bacteria.

Wright

[whuntley]

I can leave the Sermon Mode switch <ON>,

Wright, we all love a good sermon, especially when it's delivered by someone with a white beard

Like that avatar, huh?

I learnt what I know about the Camallanus from my book, "The Manual of Fish Health". My first encounter with it was when some of my Notho korthausae were infected. Those were fish that came as eggs to me so the worms couldn't have possibly come from wild fish. I do believe they came with the Tubifex.

Loh K L

I'd be more likely to suspect copepods dormant in the peat or brought in with Daphnia (Moina) o/e. Certainly the microscopic stages can come in in worm water, but they need an intermediate host that the fish eat, AFAIK. The worms are just not that host from what we know, now.

Reminds me of the myths of hydra coming in on brine shrimp eggs. There's not a prayer they can survive the hypersalinity and dehydration, but a few on the plants will sure multiply fast if you start feeding bbs.

Wright