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I know it will take a long time to set up, but by that time, you can count me in for donating plants(and hopefully Killies too). To think that I am witnessing the dawn of the Singapore Killifish Show... it has me all in tears.
Hi, folks,
Wright Huntley sent me a message, in which he offered suggestions and tips on how we can organize an international killifish show/convention. Frankly, I think it’s beyond us to do this but Wright has given us a goal to work towards to. Maybe it’s too early to talk about this as the Killifish scene in Singapore is in its infancy stage but I think we shouldn’t brush aside Wright’s proposal. I was quite stunned by the proposal and my first reaction was to write if off altogether but on second thoughts, we should at least give it serious consideration.
I propose that we meet and talk about organizing an international show/convention. I don’t believe we can ever do this but there’s no harm discussing it. I hope all the moderators here in this forum will attend the meeting. Anyone else who’s interested is welcomed to attend to.
I suggest that we meet this Wednesday (30th June) night at Eco-Culture fish shop at 8 pm to discuss this. I’m flexible so if any of you guys can’t make it, we can change the time/venue to whatever is suitable.
In the meantime, please read Wright’s message (pasted below in italics). Chew on his suggestions and let us know what you think.
Loh K L
Hi KL,
I'd like to discuss my radical, and somewhat facetious, suggestion a bit further.
Just from the forum, I detect a lot of interest in Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia and other "nearly" local spots. Folks will come from there, if they can. India? For sure!
Your biggest problem, if you hold a show, will be keeping the fish in the local area. The Japanese hobbyists may descend on your show/auction, like locusts. Likewise, maybe the Taiwanese. You will certainly attract hobbyists from NZ and Oz. They are far stronger than you realize, and have found ways to get around their draconian import rules.
Things that will help a visitor justify the air fare and hotel expense would be:
Availability of lots of plants not usually available elsewhere.
A collecting trip, for damned near anything!
Tour of the local commercial fish-producing/sales scene (not just killifish, of course).
Good enough sceduled programs to assure a few experts will be around to talk to.
Shopping or something else organized for wives not into fish to do.
Things you will need to arrange:
Publicity in a lot of languages in your surrounding vicinity, as well as Europe and the USA. Plan on at least a one-year lead time to get everything done. If they are expected to bring fish, speakers like at least 6 month advance notice, so they can collect and/or hatch eggs.
About 150 2.5G "Critter-Keeper" type tanks. These can be sold afterwards if you don't want to store for the next one. Get the Japanese ones if available. All the Malaysian ones we see here are very poorly annealed and tend to crack when least expected. I'm sure the US brands are too expensive, there, but they are strong, too.
Table-top benches to hold the tanks. Plywood shelves with black cloth covering?
Peat or Coir to provide a dark substrate, and small rugged plants if you can.
You will need to pay the air-fare and hotel for the speakers you invite. That gets paid for from sales and auction, as well as admission fees (typically US$20/family). Someone from mainland US (particularly east coast) might be pretty expensive, unless they bring a lot of fish and eggs as a donation.
For WCW, we have sent Andre Schonwille some club money to buy fish in Holland and Germany, and he has brought them to the show in luggage, at a big saving. This let us concentrate directly on species and locations we were lacking in the area.
A hotel with a room for exhibits and show tanks and another for presentations. Get a convention rate well in advance. You probably will get at least half your attendees from out of town. They'll need a place to sleep and eat.
A good printed program with local advertising is helpful. The ads help out-of-town visitors find the local shops and distributors. Speakers like to see their pictures in print. It is a pretty ($20) souvenir.
Get a good, modern killy-show computer program to handle registration, show entries, sales, labels, etc. Some of your less dedicated volunteers can be tapped to provide live food cultures for sale, raffle prizes, T-Shirts, Mugs, etc.
BTW, from what Garret just posted, we should be putting starters of Grindals, etc. in anything we send you to build up your variety of live foods.
Your plaints of too few folks falls on deaf ears. For years, Dale Weber and Paul Vormbaum ran West Coast Weekend with very little outside help.
Last year, Sue Bunte and Thuan Nguyen did much of the WCW hard (book) work, despite a score of available volunteers from NWK doing their first one. They then went from Portland to Breckenridge, to do the same things for the AKA Convention, which was given very well by a much smaller than usual club.
You only build expertise in hosting shows by doing them. Never combine them with a general aquarium show, or all you learn is how to solve their problems and interclub conflicts.
My view of your hobby in SG, right now, is a buildup of some good breeding expertise and a real desert as far as species are concerned. The show is the quick way to turn that around, and as you get more species you can reciprocate more equally with other clubs around the world, by supporting their shows.
The way we have worked it in BAKA, in recent years is to get a show chairman, who calls a series of planning meetings starting a year (11 mos?) before the show. Initially a calendar is laid out, with goals and deadlines figured out. Duties are parcelled out to the few volunteers present, and they are expected to get help as needed by recruiting others. Held about once a month or so, the planning meetings give the chairperson a chance to assure stuff is getting done, and to adjust the schedule as need arises.
Our big problem with that many meetings is that some volunteers have to travel 200 miles round trip, even to a central location. They are spread from Sacramento and Santa Rosa in the north, to way south of San Jose in the south. You have a tiny island, by comparison. :-)
Holding a show sounds like a big gamble. Experience shows that it is not, and that it leads to local club auctions like the recent one at BAKA, below.
******************
We had 51 items on the table, with lots of
great donations from our members as you can
see in the following list:
Species Location
Aphyolebias sp. 153 Cocha Fundo Shape
Aphyosemion australe EBT 96/27
Aphyosemion australe orange
Aphyosemion bivittatum Funge
Aphyosemion striatum Lambarene
Aplocheilus panchax
Campellolebias brucei
Epiplatys lamottei
Fundulopanchax gardneri Nsukka
Fundulopanchax gardneri Lafia
Nothobranchius korthausae Kwachepa TZL 53-01
Nothobranchius rachovii Beira 98
Nothobranchius sp. Caprivi 95/1
Plataplochilus ngaensis
Pseudepiplatys annulatus Guinea CI 2000
Rivulus agilae Mont Joly
Rivulus xiphidius
Scriptaphyosemion liberiense calabarica strain
Simpsonichthys perpendicularis Banko de Salta
Terranatos dolichopterus V96/7
Betta pugnax (F1)
plastic drum bowl
Bolbitis heudelottii (African fern)
Microsorum pteropus (Java Fern)
Vesicularia dubyana (Java moss)
**************************
It is not uncommon to have more than 100 bags at a club auction, but the above one was in the winter doldrums (Feb.) so was smaller, and BAKA is in a recovery mode from losing all its top breeders. Nevertheless, those fish were only there because the club has brought those species in via WCW and reciprocation with DKG, KFN, etc. It is *way* cheaper that way than what you are doing now by buying stuff from aquabid o/e. Besides, it is actually more fun!
Wright
I know it will take a long time to set up, but by that time, you can count me in for donating plants(and hopefully Killies too). To think that I am witnessing the dawn of the Singapore Killifish Show... it has me all in tears
-Mark Mendoza
thoughts:
- QH and Mr. Kenny Fish might be persuadable to be a corporate sponsor.
- STPB might be persuadable to give support.
- Nonn (or is it Oil) might help with the publishing stuff.
- we have some good photographers (not me) that could be harnessed to make beautiful pictures for the book.
- tours to QH and Teo, if not Oriental.
- tours to Nature Reserve, SBWR, etc. Maybe even to Endau.
- special package tour to JBP and Night Safari.
QH = Qian Hu a Singapore importer/exporter with USD25M turnover.
STPB = Singapore Tourist Promotion Board
Teo = aquatic plant farm
SBWR = Sungei Buloh Wetland Reserve
JBP = Jurong Bird Park
why I don't do garden hybrids and aquarium strains: natural species is a history of Nature, while hybrids are just the whims of Man.
hexazona · crumenatum · Galleria Botanica
I have organised events (including an international conference) before and I have a fairly good idea what is involved.
It depends on how large you want your event to be. If you’re thinking of something along the line of Aquarama, you need to give yourself at least 1 year to plan. However, if you’re thinking of just having say 30 people (locals) in a room talking about killies, 6 months is possible.
Just a few points (out of many, many more) for consideration:
Location – if you’re thinking of setting up tanks, hotels may be out. I will not be surprised that they have restrictions about what can be exhibited. Displaying “dry products” such as clothes or books is one thing; having living animals swimming in large bodies of water in their carpeted rooms is another! If you damage their carpets, you will have to pay for cleaning or replacement!
Accommodation – overseas delegates (in our region) usually expect some assistance in arranging accommodation. They’d expect conference rates to be offered, as well as booking arrangements to be made on their behalf. This is a logistical nightmare because you need to register as a Visa/Mastercard merchant, work out the GST status, etc. I do not recommend you offer to make booking arrangements for overseas delegates at all.
Transport – get the delegates to take taxi, at their own cost. In major conferences, conference transport is usually provided. But we do not need to offer that, of course. Needless to say, you need to ensure that your speakers are well-taken care of.
Sponsors – Sponsors do not sponsor for free; they usually expect some form of “return”, by way of publicity. If you’re going to keep the event very low key, don’t expect sponsors to give much for nothing, unless you happen to know the owner. Listed companies such as Qian Hu particularly need to justify their spending. So you should expect them to ask how it would benefit them to sponsor the event.
Collaterals – these need to be drafted, designed and printed. If you’re going to get professionals to do it, expect to pay. If you’re depending on volunteers, you need to give them enough time to complete the work. Warning – it’s not cheap. If you’re printing measly numbers like less than 1,000, better stick to printing from your own printer.
Just some food for thought.
Poh San sent me an email (pasted in italics below), in which he gave his opinions on how it would be very difficult for us to hold an international killifish show. Poh San has reservations that Wright Huntley may be displeased by negative feedback but Wright is a magnanimous man with a big heart. I'm sure you can't displease him easily :smile:.
Loh K L
----------------------
Dear KL and Ron,
I am writing this mail in reply to your post on "An International Killifish show - Can we do this?". I prefer email instead of replying in the forum because I feel that Mr Wright has been very kind to offer a list of guidelines and proposals to the setting up a Killifish show and it won't be nice to reply negatively. However, if you feel the other way, you might post this mail to the forum also.
Basically, I have two main concerns to the international killifish show. They are money and support. According to My Wright's guidelines, everything will need money: invitation of speakers including air fares and hotel rooms, booking of hotel hall, arrangement of hall, setting up registration system and so on. That is a lot of money to be spent and I don't think it can be recovered from the sale of cultures (just how many fish keepers grow their own worm to feed their fish. Many so called experts don't even know BBS), killifish, eggs, T shirts and admission. Who will sponsor all this? Members will definitely be out of the question as it will involve thousands of dollars. Killies are not as well known or as popular as gold fish, Arowanas or even Luo Hans so I doubt there will be sponsors.
As for the support, the show might attract some killies lovers from Thailand, Indonesia, or even Japan but then, I doubt the support will be strong. US killie lovers have many killifish shows in their own country so why should they come to attend a show in Singapore? (unless we have some fish which they don't have but ... aren't most of our sources of killie eggs from US?) The climate of the killifish keeping in Singapore is not mature so I am sure that the response from the public will not be strong. Even all the members of Killies.com attend the show, it will be only about 300 people.
With the above concerns, please consider this manner seriously. If the response of the show is not good, it could easily put the sponsor into great debt. And if the expenses are from the members, that will be a lot of contributions from individuals. I am not talking about S$20 but hundreds or even thousands.
Me too hope to see the International killifish show held in Singapore in order to promote the keeping of Killifish. And if it really happens, I will try my best to volunteer. However, in my opinion, I think the killies group in Singapore is still not big enough to organize such an international show. As a suggestion, we have a few fish shows held yearly or bi-yearly such as aquarama or Singapore fish show (the show that showcases Luo hans). It will be easier and cheaper if we can arrange a booth or part of the exhibit hall for killies. That will help us gain experience for future international fish shows.
Above are just some of my opinions. I may be wrong with some of the points mentioned. I would definitely look forward for such a show to be held in Singapore or even Asia.
Regards,
Ong Poh San
I have to say that unless you charge rather exorbitant fees, usually events are loss-making and the organiser has to make-up for the deficit. My former company had to cough up more than $10,000 to cover the conference deficit.
However, it really depends on the scale of the conference. The thing is, how are you going to make the conference attractive so that people will pay a few hundred dollars to attend? Unless you feature an impressive list of speakers, and have some good activities lined up, people are not likely to pay that kind of money.
Many thanks to everyone who gave their feedback and special thanks to Mrs Budak who shared her experiences in organising conferences on an international scale.
Heck, no way I'm going to organise an international killifish show if there's a chance I end up making good the deficit. Hell, no. But let's keep this topic alive for discussion's sake.
As almost everyone has pointed out, the main problem is financing. How are we going to raise the money? Hotels will demand deposits and so will exhibition halls. Where are we going to find the money to print brochures? How are we going to publicise the event if we don't have a fund in the first place? Where's the money going to come from? Sure, we may recover some or most of it from admission fees but would it be sufficient?
Choy suggested we hook up with the big timers. He suggested Qian Hu, a public listed company. I seriously doubt they will be interested but even if they are, I wouldn't want to be associated with the company which was the driving force behind the LuoHan craze. Heck, we may end up organising an international LuoHan show instead
I'm on good terms with many fish shop owners but they are mostly small-time operations. None of them would want to take on such a mammoth task but they will chip in to help, I'm sure.
Having said all that, I would like to point out that perhaps we are jumping the gun, so to speak. About a year ago, some members raise the question whether we should form a Killifish club. I was against the idea and one of my reasons was "What can a club do which this forum cannot?". No one could provide a good answer then but maybe Wright has now.
Loh K L
You can start small. Say if you know a killies expert is stopping by Singapore, grab the chance and ask if he would like to give a half-day talk to killies lovers in Singapore. Then ask around the forum (and forum members can also ask their friends) if they would like to attend.
If response is encouraging, you can book a small room. If you want to be fancy, a hotel room (with set-up and tea break) can be had for $50 per person (room rental separate if numbers are small). Or, rent a room at one of the Community Clubs (about $60 per hour) and cater snacks from Select Catering ($5 per person upwards) or buy some cakes from the nearest cakeshop.
To show appreciation for the speaker, a simple gift and a nice dinner (hosted by the organising committee) would be good. The important thing is to catch him while he's passing by, not specially "import" him from overseas. Of course, whether you can ever have such "lucky strikes" depends on your lucky stars.
This is only one approach, if you want to have a feel whether such events will succeed. It is also a good way to gauge the local killies scene.
Mr. Huntley's suggestion is to go "big bang." I think his idea is not impossible, provided we have a core group of killies enthusiasts here. I suspect local hobbyists are going to form the base group of participants, if there's going to be such a conference. The uncertainty right now is how large this base will be.
Of course, you also need time and resources. I had to engage an event organiser (who charged me a few thousand dollars) just to handle the delegates attendance, the collaterals and general liaison with the hotel. I remember staying up until 5 am at the hotel sorting out last minute business, going home for a shower, and then rushing back to the hotel at 7 am to receive the Minister (guest of honour)!!! The event cost us about $60 - 80,000 (excluding delegate fees), held at Mandarin Hotel.
Well if we intend to hold an event like this, count me in. I know nothing much about killies but I sure can get the logistical side moving
KL, I should be free this Wednesday to drop by at Eco. Need to get myself out of the house anyway. End of NS = Too Much Time.
Wright, I believe the idea is not impossible but we don't have that many species spread between all of us regulars to support the interest. Most if not all Singaporeans are very much interested in getting NEW fishes, especially colourful ones. Some beautiful killies have been, in the past, sold at LFS around the island. A short list would be most of the colourful Nothos, of which the majority die off at the shops themselves. I have once spoken to a LFS owner regarding an import of a batch of Terranatos dolichopterus, but he was reluctant to do so due to the lack of interest and the costs involved. He was willing to do so provided we have the money ready and that we would be willing to absorb losses in the form of some mortalities in the shipment or no females in the shipment. I have only seen only 2 instances of wild killies imported into Singapore and that have been one particular Rivulus species of which "rectocaudatus" would be a positive ID and that of an Epiplatys species which is still languishing in the shop.
As far as money is concerned, most of us can't afford to raise that kind of money for a convention even if the regulars band together to pitch in some money. The only way would be to get a corporate sponsor like Qian Hu Fish Farm, which Choy has already stated and for reasons already stated, unless they get some benefit from this investment they would most probably not sponsor the convention.
Regionally, we do have support coming from the surrounding Asian countries but that is, in my opinion, inadequate for the long term survival of killies within this region. Without a core group of hobbyists in each nation, it would almost lead to one country being the source of killies for the region. Japan itself has already set up an association. As for the others in the Asian continent, very very few are looking to form any sort of association soon. The costs involved are simply too much for any association to form up.
I have had ideas of seeing a South-East Asian killie association but I suppose even that has to take a backseat for now since I believe not many are supportive of that idea. Logistically, it would be a nightmare not just for setting up a regional grouping but also in terms of setting up a convention. Loss-making ideas in Singapore is not really a "hot" thing in most people's minds. Money-making ideas is what would really get the killie scene ticking locally.
Either that or we just have to concentrate on shoring up the number of species before we can even contemplate having a convention. Besides, even the local killie census I've been working on has had very very few responses. I have had to resort to collating information from individual fishlists or the previous mass egg orders and personal orders. Even then the information is most probably not up to date. If that kind of lacklustre response comes from our own members then I have no doubts that the 1st Killie Convention in Singapore would be several years away from realisation.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
I am quite excited to see what a lively and sensible discussion I have started. You folks are amazing!
I didn't mean to imply that your first effort had to be at the level of a DKG Annual show and convention. By all means, tailor the size and risk to what you can actually handle, with the volunteers you can muster.
You started the process when Ron (?) sent spoons to the WCW and AKA Convention. That token will go a long way toward persuading US members to contribute to "get started" boxes to a SG launch show and convention, when the time comes.
Each major club that sends you a box of fish for entry (or for sale) will pay about US$100 for the commercial air shipment, airport-to-airport, which has proven the safest way to move killies and eggs. Polar flights need special marking ("Do not Deck Load") and extra bottom insulation, but our success rate has been great over the years. The fish get to your club free, that way!
Assume you get about 5 such boxes, and each has about 30 pairs, mostly of different species, plus some specialty live foods and eggs. Your own members will, of course want to enter and sell fish and eggs, too. I would guess maybe 30 pairs? If the average auction price was only SG$5, you would generate about $900 right there. If you get 40 families to attend at $10 registration fee, the total is up to $1300. Bank most of it to make next year bigger! Your main expense will be rooms, tanks and trophies.
Your other activities will, hopefully, be self-supporting, so T-shirts and mugs will sell to about cover costs and live foods make a little money.
Sponsorship of essentially non-commercial genera works more like this. You organize good raffles, with hardware and foods donated by the sponsors. The LFS makes very little by selling fish to someone who can import eggs, but you do buy lots of foods, tanks, meds, nets etc. The manufacturers of those have been most generous to us with raffle goods that contribute greatly to the fun of the event, at little cost to them.
Raffles will add a few hundred to your slush fund. You can reciprocate by listing all the donors and their web sites in the forum and on the program.
You can also sell LFS ads in the program, to cover printing costs. Both attendees and the stores will like that.
Given a year+ lead time, you may be able to put out a general call for speakers who might otherwise want to be in the region, and get some top-notch collector to drop in for a slide show at little expense to you.
Bottom line: What's in it for you?
It will firm up your organization so you can deal with other clubs on a more equal basis, and get a flow of fish and eggs started that is way beyond what you can do now. It is a self-generating phenomenon, and individual trades and purchases eventually will make it uncomfortable that you can't keep all the species you would like to.
Your members will get a lot of new species for way less money than individual importing can ever do. You'll have so many that beginners will be forced to become experts quickly just to keep most of them going.
Only you can decide how cheap or fancy the show must be to get out the participants who will get the auction and raffle results up where it is worth while. Always remember that the fish are the main attraction, so don't waste a lot of money on speakers, hotel, etc., initially.
Keep in mind that your objective is to increase your local species count to a level that will sustain the hobby in your region. There is no way, IMHO, to do that without a little risk. Good planning and management can make that risk acceptable, I suspect.
[BTW, we have never had a problem with fish and carpets in hotels. We handle water in large plastic trash barrels, and arrange with the management how the water and cleanup will be handled. It is just not a problem. Our little containers are far lass hazard and easier that the huge tanks at chicklet shows.]
One crucial item needs to be considered. The show must be held when shipping is possible in the northern hemisphere (where clubs are), but should be scheduled to not conflict with other major shows, if possible. That's not easy as we keep getting more good active national clubs holding shows. Anyway, that puts a window in May-Oct that should be kept in mind when choosing a year to start.
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
Wright, now that I've got the 'ol pacemaker to tick again... you looking for me?Originally Posted by whuntley
The spoons are in appreciation for the information that were so freely shared amongst KT's list members, to a then lone killiekeeper. Too miniscule an offering to even mention it here but if you can recall private email correspondence (albeit a couple of years back), the topic of killie club and convention was briefly discussed only because it was way beyond an individual's capability.That token will go a long way toward persuading US members to contribute to "get started" boxes to a SG launch show and convention, when the time comes.
Even in view of the current 300+ members in this forum, including international members like yourself, I suspect that the current species-count - including 'fish boxes', might not be able to attract sufficient interest. (Getting public media to cover the event, is the least of my worries)
It's akin to visiting a 'MotorCar Show' where the main attraction are the latest tires, without fancy prototypes, Evos or 'Beemers'. While not the most appropriate analogy, for now, it's the only one that comes to mind.
Your projections are very optimistic and I feel that while fishes will fetch higher than the 5 bucks at auctions, many will balk at the 'registration fee' for a low-profile 'show'... (an Asian? "What's in it for me" mentality?... no offence to anyone). Then what? door gifts?
Some of us maintain good relations with LFS and getting some form of goods/hardware sponsorship shouldn't be a problem but I'm unclear what it takes to approach the 'big boys' for the support.Sponsorship of essentially non-commercial genera works more like this. You organize good raffles, with hardware and foods donated by the sponsors.
Wright, can you expand on this? I'm not sure how this works but isn't a licence involved in live-fish export/importation and how do you define 'free' when there're shipping costs involved?Each major club that sends you a box of fish for entry (or for sale) will pay about US$100 for the commercial air shipment, airport-to-airport, which has proven the safest way to move killies and eggs. Polar flights need special marking ("Do not Deck Load") and extra bottom insulation, but our success rate has been great over the years. The fish get to your club free, that way!
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
Wright, I guess a gathering the size of what we previously held at Far East Aquatic would be OK for the moment. As for the commercial air shipments, we need to apply for an importation permit from the AVA (the Singapore equivalent of the US FWS). Not an easy task as some of the requirements are way beyond a hobbyist's ability - having a quarantine facility would be one of them. Either that or we'll have to co-ordinate with a fish farm to get the shipments in.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Exactly what I would say about our tightwad killy keepers, here.Your projections are very optimistic and I feel that while fishes will fetch higher than the 5 bucks at auctions, many will balk at the 'registration fee' for a low-profile 'show'... (an Asian? "What's in it for me" mentality?... no offence to anyone
Some auction fish get lost and go for a buck or two. If the Japanese get eager, some may bring over $100. The registration fee buys that excitement. It's a better payoff than the lottery, IMHO.
BTW, we have made the fish show free to the public in recent years, and it has gotten lots of folks off the street to see killies for the first time. Some get excited and register so they can get in on the raffles, sales, and auction. Our beginner's program is always free, but other presentations require registration. We give beginners easy fish and a bag of foods, etc. Members donate those fish. [Nice project for newer breeders to do their bit for the club.]
Sponsorship of essentially non-commercial genera works more like this. You organize good raffles, with hardware and foods donated by the sponsors.
Local shops are OK, but not likely to provide what you most need and can use. Go directly to the big companies for the best stuff. Don't be afraid to ask for Brine Shrimp eggs, breather bags, APR and other stuff that will be really useful. OTOH, be prepared to help them push new products they wish to promote.Some of us maintain good relations with LFS and getting some form of goods/hardware sponsorship shouldn't be a problem but I'm unclear what it takes to approach the 'big boys' for the support.
Make up a club letterhead, and even a dummy program. Send a request, (usually best done near year end or very early in Jan.) explaining the function and purpose of their donation, where to send it, and how it will help the hobby and your club. Many phoney groups are set up just to get freebies from them, so they legitimately want your web site, newsletter and any other proof that you are a legitimate group that they should support.
You may have to send it again to a local distributor, if the manufacturer wants it that way. Otherwise always send it to the Marketing Manager of the parent company, first. Use TFH and other mags, plus the web to get the names and addresses.
Most countries have no license or duty on small private shipments of tropical fish. IDK about Singapore. When the time comes, you will need to get someone trained to pick up the box at the airport and walk it through customs. Done properly the fish are out of killikeeper hands for less than a day.Wright, can you expand on this? I'm not sure how this works but isn't a licence involved in live-fish export/importation and how do you define 'free' when there're shipping costs involved?
The sending club normally pays for shipping their box to you, and you pay local duty (usually none if done properly). When you get rolling (and ridiculously rich), you can reciprocate by doing the same. All fish to the AKA Convention are donations (as should be to your first show) but many local shows do a 50/50 or 75/25 split on sale and auction fish. That can be a bookkeeping headache, BTW. Later alligator.
You can even send "thank-you" gifts of plentiful native mosses o/e to the donor clubs, when sending out any won trophies to them for distribution to their members.
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
Wright, that's a great idea on the mosses. I believe Kwek Leong would be more than willing to harvest some extra mosses.
As for the bit on someone trained, we may need someone with an import permit. That would require the help of a fish farm as I've said. Or an LFS with an import permit. Not much of a problem but getting the person to do it for us is.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Why do you need an import permit? We don't here. Only if you are regularly doing commercial business is one required most places. BAKA receives several boxes a year without any permit asked for. [Worth checking, though, before getting a box hung up.]Wright, that's a great idea on the mosses. I believe Kwek Leong would be more than willing to harvest some extra mosses.
As for the bit on someone trained, we may need someone with an import permit. That would require the help of a fish farm as I've said. Or an LFS with an import permit. Not much of a problem but getting the person to do it for us is.
Here we need to coordinate with our local Fish and Wildlife agents to get the box inspected (if they choose to do it) and then we just run it through customs to make sure all the paperwork is done.
A club is more like a private party, but the F&WL folks get to know us enough that they usually waive the inspection. They know the fish are labelled with correct latin names and will contain no endangered species, etc.
Customs just wants the originally signed invoices with accurate fish list and declared nominal value. [Plants are a bigger problem as rooted plants carry nematodes that must be removed properly.]
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
I love to have the last say
My former boss once asked if we could bring a triennial international meeting to our shores. My answer to him was a categorical “NO”. For a big meeting of that scale (with some 2500 delegates from 30 over countries), I would need whole team of dedicated people who are willing to slog it out for mths/ yrs – people who are deeply committed to a cause. There was no member society, and no entourage of souls to begin with.
I believe behind every successful international meeting, there’s the strong backing of a grouping of national and regional member societies/ clubs. But with regards to the killifish scene, a club/ society is a good way to recruit passionate and committed hobbyists, and therefrom gauge and nurture the level of interest in the killifish hobby - locally and regionally. Helping to set up, networking and sharing with similar clubs around the region, say Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia, NZ, etc., would greatly help in advancing the hobby. If you could have 10 hobbyists who are keen to make the trip from each country, then you are not far from the goal.
Whuntley’s scaled-down proposition, although sounds more doable, is still ahead of its times. It’s a noble and great ambition, but perhaps he misperceived the killi situation in this part of the world. I think it’s safe for me to say no one should know better than the people at killies.com -people who live, work and play here, and yes, people who eat, sleep and dream killies. I certainly don’t see an awful lot of forummers stepping forward to firmly and optimistically say; yes, let’s do it! It’s not about being negative. It’s about being realistic.
If anything, Mr Whuntley has just envisioned the possibility of this happening in the future. Do I see a “Goal 2010” in the making??
Anyway, these are just my personal views as a non-killie hobbyist lurking in this forum.
HI Mr Loh,
Why not seek 1 LFS as a point of contact to spread the knowledge and awareness of killies fish, so as to increase the number of hobbist interest/understanding of killies fish in singapore for a start.
You may discuss with the LFS to have a small corner of maybe some small tank for displaying killies fish.
Maybe have a small event on killies at the shop every 6month so as the experts from here can meet up with hobbists to share some knowledge. And at the same time display some new killies.
Maybe it should be spread over 2-3days event.
Like day 1 and day 2 for display and knowledge exchange and public awareness of killies fish.
Day 3 is to sold off the fishes.
I do believe that most LFS would be glad to offer this. But you need to find a LFS that is comfortable and trusted.
I find that currently what the scence here is very back stage.
Hope people can stand forward and meet up.
Just a thou. Please do not bomb me.
If you need any help on this, hope i can help.
Best Regards
TS
Best Regards, TS
PlantLog Garden Cryptocoryne, Bucephalandra .....
Wright, hand-carrying fishes through customs at the airport is OK but not when it involves a box full of live fishes. They have specific rules with regards to how many fish per bag you can hand-carry past customs at the airport. The AVA requires us to have an import permit when it comes to receiving the fish and getting them past Customs. The laws here are pretty different compared to the States. I guess we may need to read up more or enquire with the AVA with regards to this matter. I'll check it up soon.
Fish.. Simply Irresistable
Back to Killies... slowly.
Hi, fellas,
About the meeting at Eco-Culture on Wednesday night, it's not a "call to arms"
I'll be there and even if you have no interest in organising an international fish show, come on over for a chit chat.
Loh K L
Hi, folks,
We had our meeting last night and it extended into the wee hours of the morning. We didn't just discuss about the *upcoming* international killifish show of course. When we get together, the topics can range from small little stuff like microworms to biggies like "who has the largest planted tank in the world".
But seriously, I'm afraid I have to tell you all that there won't be an international killifish show. Well, at least not in the near future. We talked about many things but everyone agreed that before we can even think about an international show, we have to get our house in order first. We contemplated if it's a good idea to form a killifish club but local culture being what it is, we concluded that we should leave this idea on the shelf for the time being.
Wright, I don't know how I can explain the differences between local culture and American culture to you but in Singapore, when someone joins a club, his first question would probably be "What's in it for me?". I don't know if it's true but from what we've observed of American culture, an American who joins a club would probably ask "What can I do for the club?".
We may sound pessimistic and a little self-depreciating but the fact is we have little faith and no confidence that the formation of a club will improve the local killifish scene.
But all is not lost.
We discussed with Azmi, the owner of the fish shop called Eco-culture on how we can whip up more interest in Killifish. Azmi was very helpful and he has agreed to set up a "Killifish Korner" in his fish shop for us. For starters, there will be 3 tanks. What we intend to do is to fill these 3 tanks with our excess Killies. Whenever possible, we will put in breeding bowls or spawning mops (whichever is more appropriate) into these tanks so that other fish hobbyists can see at first hand the amazing breeding cycles of Killies.
We hope it will turn out to be a "win win" situation for everyone. Breeders can recover some of their *investments* by selling off their excess Killies in Eco-Culture. Azmi can make more profits by diversifying into Killies and there will be a fish shop with a constant supply of Killies for newbies in the hobby. Over time, we hope this arrangement will recruit more people into the hobby. Hopefully, there will be some who will turn out to be dedicated hobbyists and a few among them may be gungho enough to form a killifish club and from there, go on to host an international show.
Ronnie, Zulkifli and Jianyang who were at the meeting has pledged that they will try and keep the 3 tanks at Eco-Culture filled with Killies constantly. For my part, I will do my best but I no longer have as many species as I had before. Ronnie said I'm "passing the buck" but I like to think of myself as "passing the baton". I appeal to the breeders here to get in touch with either Azmi or myself and we will explain the arrangement in greater detail. Rest assured your fish won't be given for free as we don't want to devalue the fish. They will be sold but we hope to keep prices affordable to most hobbyists.
Lastly, I like to thank Wright for prodding us to become something much bigger than we have ever envisaged. I hope, after all the time and efforts you have spent in cajoling and persuading us, you won't feel let down by our decision. We appreciate your kindness and the generosity of your suggestions very much but the truth is, as far as an international show is concerned, we are just not up to it at the moment.
Loh K L
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