An International Killifish show - Can we do this?

[whuntley]

I'm not at all disappointed or discouraged at your decision. You are there and I am not. It's really easy for me to suggest something that is a lot of work, when you cannot get me to do any of it.

Your distinction in cultures doesn't impress me all that much. We have exactly the same attitudes here as you have there. "What's in it for me?" is an all-too common reaction, and when you get a group acting like that, recruit that kind of member, and have them become the leaders, it goes exactly the way all other socialist schemes seem to go. Down the sewer. [The AKA has been through some serious stages of that, in the past.]

I'm surprised that you can look at your forum and the moderators and come to the conclusion that it's the only type you have. The very last kind of member you should seek is the "What's in it for me?" type. It's natural and proper for any human being to look out for his own self interest, but we are also social types who can organize cooperative ventures for mutual benefit. Finding a structure and procedures for getting that done often requires a bit of wisdom and a keen sense of the local culture, I agree.

Oh well, guess I'll have to go back to debunking myths and making other outrageous suggestions.

As a parting shot on this subject, I would suggest that you use your local AKA members to buy more from the breeders in the Fish and Egg listing in the BNL and less from Aquabid. You get the protection of the Code of Ethics, and the prices are not the utter rip-off usually found at Aquabid. Probably average better fish, too.

Wright

[timebomb]

I'm surprised that you can look at your forum and the moderators and come to the conclusion that it's the only type you have. The very last kind of member you should seek is the "What's in it for me?" type.

Wright, the "what's in it for me" type is so many in number we have problems finding the other type. Whenever I find a "what can I do for the club" type of person, I turn him into a moderator Those I can't persuade to become moderators are usually people who live outside of Singapore or are already moderators of other fish forums.

There's a core group of dedicated hobbyists here but we lack the critical mass. We need the numbers before we can form a club. One major obstacle is few fish shops here sell Killies and even when they do, the owners know little about the fish. We'll have to work with the few fish shops who are keen to try something new. Generally, fish shop owners here are a conservative lot - they won't want to sell something that does not have a proven sales record.

Fish hobbyists are plentiful and fish shops dot our small island. But few people want to breed fish. Those that do, breed other fish as the perception is that Killies are low in value and have short lives. As it is, I would say things have improved tremendously when compared to how it was like 2 years ago. Then, there were only 2 Killifish hobbyists in Singapore - Ronnie and I. I would definitely agree if you say we can do better but we have to give it time.

As for purchasing eggs from Aquabid, it's actually something new to me too. When I started, I depended on my friends in the USA and Canada to send the eggs to me. It's takes time to build up a circle of foreign friends and I can understand perfectly if people become impatient and don't mind paying the high prices on Aquabid. As for joining the AKA, the "what's in it for me" attitude will be the main reason few here will join. The fact is, there's no rule that says one has to be an AKA member before he can buy eggs from the AKA's Fish and Egg List. For someone who lives outside the USA, there's little incentive to join the AKA. A club is where you meet fellow hobbyists but it's hard to do that when you're a few thousand miles away .

If your club is willing to deal with hobbyists like us, we would gladly trade or pay for a box of Killies. We have little species to offer but we have access to many exotic aquatic plants. What say you?

Loh K L

[whuntley]

KL wrote:

Wright, the "what's in it for me" type is so many in number we have problems finding the other type.

ROTFL!

That's true everywhere, KL. Don't feel alone. In BAKA, if the club could turn out 30 members for a good program and auction, there were usually less than 5 doing any real work for the club. Over the years, I found that for NCKC or for BAKA, the actual work of the club was mostly done by about 2 or 3 people, most of the time.

There's a core group of dedicated hobbyists here but we lack the critical mass. We need the numbers before we can form a club.

It is purely a chicken-egg question. You need the club before you can get the numbers, too. Eventually someone breaks down and bites the bullet.

Regularly scheduled meetings at a known location will get others attending to get the live foods, auction fish or just information. The crucial factor is those first seven words. The rest will flow from that.

One major obstacle is few fish shops here sell Killies and even when they do, the owners know little about the fish. We'll have to work with the few fish shops who are keen to try something new. Generally, fish shop owners here are a conservative lot - they won't want to sell something that does not have a proven sales record.

That is true all over the world. Almost no fish shops sell killies here. It is a very big mistake to involve the fish shops, for killies have never been a good commercial bet for them, any time or any where. Killies will never have a big proven sales record. The husbandry is too tough for commercial farming and the fish are generally too small to attract most of the public. It is a very different hobby from trying to breed a $50,000 Koi.

You can sometimes temporarily band together with similar types of fish. Rainbows (and Blue-Eyes) and "wild" Bettas are the puddle fish in the parts of the world to your south as killifish are most everywhere else. Joint meetings and shows with those folks is sometimes a lot of fun. They are usually even more poorly-organized than killy clubs, but most killy breeders also like those small fish.

As for joining the AKA, the "what's in it for me" attitude will be the main reason few here will join. The fact is, there's no rule that says one has to be an AKA member before he can buy eggs from the AKA's Fish and Egg List. For someone who lives outside the USA, there's little incentive to join the AKA. A club is where you meet fellow hobbyists but it's hard to do that when you're a few thousand miles away

I thought there were AKA members in SG. You certainly do have to be a member to buy F&E from the BNL. You don't get the BNL, otherwise. You can, of course, wait until all the better fish are gone and buy from the delayed on-line F&EL at www.aka.org, but that's no way to build good stocks.

The AKA runs a bit like a club (to my permanent dismay) but it is not a club. It is a national association (which in most other hobbies and sports means an "association" of regional or local groups). It produces a professional Journal (6/yr) and a monthly Business News Letter (BNL) that is stuffed with useful information on upcoming shows, etc. The individual members of AKA do meet, but at the annual Convention, where only about 10% ever actually attend. I have gone once in the last 12-13 years.

AKA has extensive publications and video resources available to members only. Some affiliate clubs use the videos as good programs at way less cost than importing a speaker. Any AKA member can buy the tapes at little more than cost.

If your club is willing to deal with hobbyists like us, we would gladly trade or pay for a box of Killies. We have little species to offer but we have access to many exotic aquatic plants. What say you?

I say fine, but I do not speak for my club any more. CA is a huge country. The Feb. meeting (due to Sierra snow blocking passes) is a 9-hour drive each way (usually in rough weather), so I don't even try for it. I'm a bit out of touch. Contact Dr. Thuan Nguyen about such deals. [See www.sfbaka.net for addys] You also have access to Blue-Eyes and non-splendens Bettas that the members are often eager to get.

Since the BAKA membership is strained right now by death of several leading breeders and others (like me) moving away, don't expect too much. It is far, far harder to ask members to contribute fish to such a box, when it is not to help launch a new club o/e. BAKA drains all of the members all the time to support the AKA convention and several local affiliate clubs, plus all the major US and European shows. Frankly you may be down in the noise among such competition until you have a fancy letterhead.

Wright

[stormhawk]

Wright, what a nice way to put things. For awhile I couldn't get it but then again, yes, sometimes you need to do it on an equal basis. I understand your idea that by forming an association of our own here, we will be able to trade for eggs and stuff with other associations on an equal footing.

KL, I think a further discussion on this formation of an association should be done with opinions from our regional members, especially those from neighbouring nations.

[whuntley]

Jianyang wrote

KL, I think a further discussion on this formation of an association should be done with opinions from our regional members, especially those from neighbouring nations.

SERMON MODE <ON>

Am I a neighboring nation? I sure have opinions! :wink:

That's cool Jianyang, but don't get the cart before the horse. The US and Europe have both suffered by formation of the national "clubs" before they had good strong local groups operating. When those inevitably appeared, there were years of strife and competition for memberships and volunteers. [It even got so silly that tiny Belgium has two national clubs, one speaking Flemish and the other French!] Constructing a building without a foundation is always much harder than doing it right.

In your situation a regional association makes a lot of sense, but it should be formed by several strong local clubs and be run by delegates from them. This is a process that has worked well for many kinds of hobby and athletic groups.

I know it is tempting to go for strength in numbers, and spread the responsibility. Unfortunately the things a local club can and wants to do are very different from what a regional or national authority can contribute. Local clubs are highly social and tend to place the good of the whole hobby in some sort of secondary place. Associations are where the local groups can get together to work for the good of the hobby in the whole region and even the whole world. Social stuff becomes the secondary (still important) function as business comes first.

I'm just trying to save you the years of political infighting that have characterized those groups trying to be a super-association but competing for individual members with locals. Compare the nastiness still apparent in the American Kennel Club with the smooth running of Yacht Racing around the world. That is fundamentally a difference in how the two were organized way back at their beginnings.

A regional or national organization sets standards (like nomenclature and judging) and coordinates schedules, does publications, and provides a dispute-settling function like the AKA COE coordinator. It defines ethical conduct! It can help broker deals between local clubs and provide resources for their shows and other events. [Joint ownership of show tanks comes to mind.] It can keep a census of species and help the local groups fill gaps that they are lusting for, by knowing where to obtain good local Aphyosemion bettemiddleri.

All volunteers and resources must come from members of the local groups or clubs, but how they are divided between local and regional activity can be run smoothly or it can be a mess of infighting and dissention. No one likes the latter, so take care you don't make it inevitable by failing to understand what is likely best for the hobby at all levels.

My suggestion is to get a good club going, now, with regular meetings and auctions, in Singapore. When you get the urge to have a show, start small with a local bowl show at a regular meeting, where judging can be taught and it is a casual fun event. [Get a copy of the AKA judging manual and the equivalent from BKA, DKG, etc., eventually, when you want to do a bigger show. Blend or select from them to devise your own manual. It will then be ready for the association when you form it.]

When you are ready to do it, make that first "real" show a one-day affair with one speaker and little or no entry or registration fee. Concentrate on getting a good auction that makes the club a few bucks to work with. From there you can build, and start helping the clubs in Thailand and Indonesia get their things going. Sending them a "start-up" box can help increase their species counts and raise a little money for their treasury, too.

Next thing you know, you'll need a South East Asia Killifish Association to help coordinate all those activities. Please don't try to put it in place first, when you so desparately need local organization. OK?

SERMON MODE <OFF>

A little aside on relationships with the commercial shops. Our hobby is in sharp conflict with their needs, so we need to bend over backward to educate them and support them as much as possible.

Use the local store as an outlet for some of your surplus fish. Don't haggle too hard. Give them a bargain. One special shop in San Francisco draws from all the BAKA breeders to keep a fairly nice assortment in stock. Another in Modesto buys batches from a wholesaler in Germany. He gets misidentified fish (80-90%) and still does it because he's a life-long killinut. The other 200+ shops in N. CA almost never see a killifish unless it comes in as eggs on a plant. [Neither probably makes any money on those killies, BTW.]

The shopkeeper needs to know that you will buy hardware, foods etc., and that you are not a total loss to him. Some are even willing to learn from you, but most are in the habit of being the local expert, so be careful.

Some shops kindly provide meeting space. Larger stores in the Bay Area have offered show space at no cost to the young club. [Security was so poor that idea died early.]

Just don't expect the needs of your club and the needs of the shops to be in perfect sync all the time. Personal diplomacy is most worthwhile in bridging that difficult gap.

ttfn

Wright

[timebomb]

KL, I think a further discussion on this formation of an association should be done with opinions from our regional members, especially those from neighbouring nations.

Jianyang, that's a good suggestion but as Wright has pointed out, we will be putting the cart before the horse. It's too early to speak of forming a club, let alone a regional association.

However, I think Wright made a very good suggestion when he wrote of a regular meeting place. We don't have an official club but there's nothing to stop us from meeting regularly at a fixed place. I would suggest we fix a date (maybe the first Saturday of every month) and a place (maybe Eco-Culture since they have a space for people to hang around) and all of us try to turn up everytime. If we have surplus fish or plants, we can bring it there to trade or sell them to Eco. Many of you guys hang around at Ronnie's house every Saturday night so it would just be a matter of changing the venue.

Over time, hobbyists who want to try their hands at Killies will know of our regular meetings and they probably will turn up to meet us.

What say you all? If you prefer another date or place, please let me know about it.

Loh K L

[zmzfam]

KL,

I couldn't put it better myself. It will be a win-win situation for Eco, I think, since people who come will definitely browse around the shop and many will buy things from there.
I'll agree on the place being Eco and to meet up on the 1st Saturday of the month. On the trading between hobbyists at Eco, would Azmi mind?

[timebomb]

On the trading between hobbyists at Eco, would Azmi mind?

I haven't checked with him yet but I'm sure Azmi will be okay with this. When Eco-Culture opened a few months ago, I spoke to one of their owners, Elwyn. He told me it's their policy to encourage hobbyists to trade stuff in their shop. The guys at Eco are the new generation of fish shop owners. They are service-orientated businessmen.

I like Eco a lot, especially when they're only less than a 10 minute drive from my house .

Loh K L

[stormhawk]

Wright, points noted. I've always wondered why Belgium had to have two separate clubs. But then again my aunt living in Belgium has told me about the friction between French-speaking and Flemish-speaking Belgians. In Singapore we have alot of different races speaking different languages but at least they're united by the common "Singlish".

Building a strong foundation is always a requirement before going on the big stuff, thats why I mentioned a loose regional grouping since locally, the members that are really into killies are very few. I thought strength in numbers would be a good idea but then again we should fortify our numbers locally before going on to roping in the others in our neighbouring nations.

KL, its okay with me if we have regular meetings over at Eco. Its a nice place where we can talk easily. In fact I think that might be a good place for me to leave my excess hornwort. Darn plant grows like a weed! The other place would be Ronnie's Killie Korner at Yew Tee or your place down at Towner..

[timebomb]

The other place would be Ronnie's Killie Korner at Yew Tee or your place down at Towner..

You all are welcome to visit me anytime but I think we will all be more comfortable at Eco. I hope the 2 administrators, Shortman and Roger Thien will attend the meetings too. I know Roger is busy with his newborn but if he can find the time to join us once a month, it will be great.

During our discussion 2 nights ago, one of the topics brought up was how we can improve this forum and web site. This web site started as a personal endeavour but now it has grown too big to be owned by one person. I will still continue to own the domain name (killies.com) but I'm more than happy to share the web site with the moderators and administrators. Many of you have much to contribute and we can revamp this web site such that you can upload articles or pictures into the main site. I think it will be great if we can create buttons on the menu bar in such a way that you all can create your own web pages.

That's just an idea though. I don't know how it can be done. So I hope Shortman and Roger can turn up to give us good advice. By the way, I've told my wife many times that if something should happen to me and I'm dead and gone, I want the domain name "killies.com" to be handed to Ronnie. It's a nice name but in the wrong hands, it's worth nothing.

Loh K L

[PohSan]

Hi KL,

We don't have an official club but there's nothing to stop us from meeting regularly at a fixed place. I would suggest we fix a date (maybe the first Saturday of every month) and a place (maybe Eco-Culture since they have a space for people to hang around) and all of us try to turn up everytime.

Just asking, is the meeting on the 1st week of the month at Eco still on? If there is, 7th of August will be the first Saturday of August, 2 days before Singapore National Day.

Regards,
Ong Poh San

[stormhawk]

PohSan, if nothing affects the plans I believe there will be a meeting at Eco on August 7th. Be seeing you and the others there .

[timebomb]

Just asking, is the meeting on the 1st week of the month at Eco still on?

Yup, Poh San, the meeting is on. I'll definitely be there at about 8.30 pm. I got a batch of Notho rachovii's going and I will probably be bringing a trio or 2 pairs for Eco to sell. The fish are still young but they should be laying eggs soon. I got a picture of the fish just now. The rachovii's are so beautiful I wonder why I didn't want to keep them at one time. Here's a pic:



Loh K L

[RonWill]

Kwek Leong, is 8.30pm a fixed time or flexible enough for those who wish to arrive/leave earlier?

If nothing holds me back at work, I should be there around 6pm with a small group of Fundulopanchax gardneri N'sukka (original strain). There ought to be 6 pairs or trios, depending on the sex ratio or on what I have available. These GARs are about 1", coloring up nicely (definitely sexable) and eating like pigs!

Pardon the blurry pic but I think my kids drop the DC (hah! how's that for an excuse )

Azmi, if you're reading this, I think you should set aside at least 2 tanks for the Notho & GAR.

[KEVIN AERIA]

WOW ! Kwek Leong, your Notho Rachovii's are simply gorgeous !

I would be there on the 7th.


Kevin

[timebomb]

Kwek Leong, is 8.30pm a fixed time or flexible enough for those who wish to arrive/leave earlier?

Ronnie, if you are going earlier, I can be there at 7.30 pm.

WOW ! Kwek Leong, your Notho Rachovii's are simply gorgeous !

You're welcome to the meeting, Kevin. If you really want the rachovii's, I would suggest you call Eco and reserve them first because I have at most only 2 pairs to spare. It's up to Eco to fix the prices so I can't tell you how much they are. I have to warn you though, they won't be cheap. We want to put the value back on Killies. Before, I think we sold them too cheaply.

Loh K L