Kryptolebias marmoratus

[zmzfam]

This topic was delayed due to non-arrival of a 'Tuit' .

Anyway, thanks to Wright Huntley and a very kind young (according to Wright anyway ) man, I have in my posession a dozen of these eggs. However, only 3 of them seems to be viable and developing.
I'll upload the photos of them later into the gallery.

A brief intro into these species :

Cryptolebias marmoratus, formerly Rivulus marmoratus (name change just happened in June 2004).

A hermaphrodite killifish, with males very rare. Males seems to only appear when the incubation temperature of the eggs is very low and hermaphroditic females turning into males when they are old. However, males tend to be very temperamental.

Typical landscape would include mangroves swamps, hypersaline lagoons and marine shores which means brackish water fish.

[whuntley]

This topic was delayed due to non-arrival of a 'Tuit' .

Glad you finally got a supply of them. Handy, aren't they?

Anyway, thanks to Wright Huntley and a very kind young (according to Wright anyway ) man, I have in my posession a dozen of these eggs. However, only 3 of them seems to be viable and developing.
I'll upload the photos of them later into the gallery.

Be patient. I seem to see a delayed start of development in some eggs, sometimes lasting weeks. The week before your eggs were collected, I collected the eggs from a couple of earlier weeks and held them for observation, so I was shipping very fresh eggs via our "young" (40-ish) physician/violinist friend who kindly hand carried them to Zul.

I see a new baby every day or so from those eggs (just sucked out another one). Several are dark and nearly ready to hatch, but half are still slightly-cloudy/clear with barely even any dark eye development showing. Darned if I know what is happening, here.

The consolation is that it is nearly certain that you have a viable breeding "pair" if only one hatches and can be grown out. The ones that look like females, with the typical Riv eyespot in the caudal, actually have both ovaries and testes and self-fertilize their eggs. [I get only a few white eggs that are clearly infertile.]

They are one of the very few true hermaphrodites among vertebrates.

I raised one pair together, totally isolated from others, and did not get the usual pair that this procedure produces in nearly all other Rivs. I got 2 "females."

A brief intro into these species :

Cryptolebias marmoratus, formerly Rivulus marmoratus (name change just happened in June 2004).

A hermaphrodite killifish, with males very rare. Males seems to only appear when the incubation temperature of the eggs is very low and hermaphroditic females turning into males when they are old. However, males tend to be very temperamental.

Typical landscape would include mangroves swamps, hypersaline lagoons and marine shores which means brackish water fish.

I wouldn't say hypersaline. The particular collection that you have, Dandriga Belize Jan. 2000, were originally collected in a rainforest in water that was very low tds (almost like distilled water, with no salt at all). While they tolerate, for brief periods, water up to seawater salinity, most are found in areas tempered by some fresh water. Tampa Bay is a favorite habitat, and it has enough fresh flow into it to support healthy growth of grasses and other higher vascular plants. They tell me every sunken beer can in Tampa Bay has a resident marmoratus. Does that give you any ideas for a biotope tank design?

I have one male and doubt it was because of cold hatching conditions. He has pretty, reddish unpaired fins and a fine pattern on his sides, with a white belly. Since they are so rare, I guess I should get a pic of him while he is young and attractive. I'm told that the Dandrigas do throw more males than most other collections.

Males may or may not be temperamental, but this one devastated the tail of a larger female when they were together. He now lives alone in a little Betta Hex tank. I'd say he was just plain vicious!

These fish came originally from Bruce Turner's collection, via Bob Goldstein, Bill Gallagher and Howard Wu. When Dr. Goldtstein sent them cross-country to Bill, he had a wet piece of filter floss in a tiny bag with one fish resting on the floss, but no water! Amazing way to mail fish, cheap.

My male likes to get out and paste himself up by the lid by surface tension. I often see him flip down from his perch when I walk into my office. These fish get out on land and go hunting for insects, so do be aware that the tiniest hole can create a "crispy critter." Some have been found deep in damp holes in mangrove roots, well above the water line. It is up to you to see that they don't attempt to move up the evolutionary ladder before they are ready for that. :wink:

They seem ultra-tolerant of osmotic shock. I have lost my hygrometer and my tds meter tops out at 999 ppm, so I just guess at the salinity, most of the time. They seem to tolerate water changes with considerable apparent differences. I add some Seachem "Equilibrium" to their change water as well as plain NaCl. to be sure there is enough potassium to balance out the sodium, for my water is pretty soft (85 ppm tds). It would be better if I used reef salt mixes, like "Coralife" or "Instant Ocean," with a proper balance of electrolytes, but they seem to be incredibly tough and tolerant.

I feed a lot of bbs, as I don't have lots of babies to feed, right now. The brine shrimp last a long time in their salty water. I also feed some blackworms and other live foods when I have them available. Mosquito larvae don't like the salt water, but are quickly devoured so it doesn't matter.

Good luck with them. If these eggs don't make it, LMK and I'll try sending some in a breather bag.

Wright

[RonWill]

This topic was delayed due to non-arrival of a 'Tuit' .

Hey! where's mine?? Did Wright send some along with the marmoratus eggs or am I suppose to wait till he gets his 'tuits' too?

Zul, I think this's the only time when one doesn't have to worry about raising a pair to further another generation but still, you still need at least one :wink:

While they tolerate, for brief periods, water up to seawater salinity, most are found in areas tempered by some fresh water

Wright, the way I read it, sure sounds like they'll do OK in our water with a pinch of salt... and I thought they needed brackish!

They tell me every sunken beer can in Tampa Bay has a resident marmoratus. Does that give you any ideas for a biotope tank design?

Sure does! Don't suppose they'll mind beer bottles as well and Zul, if you need some, gimme a holler ya?

When Dr. Goldtstein sent them cross-country to Bill, he had a wet piece of filter floss in a tiny bag with one fish resting on the floss, but no water! Amazing way to mail fish, cheap

urm... I have to ask! Was there a typo or ? Sending live fish on damp floss without water?

It is up to you to see that they don't attempt to move up the evolutionary ladder before they are ready for that. :wink:

Zul, I think Wright's saying that if you drop one on the floor, don't wait too long to pick it up or they'll start to walk!

From the rest of the description, these marmoratus looks good for newbies' first killies! Tolerant to water changes and parameter changes, plus one with an attitude... I know of no other killie that'll stick themselves onto lids and live to tell a tail, a tale I mean :wink:

Wright, thanks for getting the eggs to our shores. Much appreciated and Zul, I'll be looking forward to updates on this fascinating fish!

[zmzfam]

Haha...I should have put a disclaimer on the info I put up - it was skimmed off the net and was meant for general info, not for a particular locality.

Hey Ronnie, here's a fast update. I'll send them to you for babysitting next Tuesday. How's that, ha?

It is up to you to see that they don't attempt to move up the evolutionary ladder before they are ready for that.

Zul, I think Wright's saying that if you drop one on the floor, don't wait too long to pick it up or they'll start to walk!

Yeah, Wright reminded me in his mail to me. Will be preparing the cover for them later, when the eggs hatched.

Will be doing further updates on how's the eggs are doing, so stay tuned folks! :wink:

[whuntley]

I assume Zul is off to his thing, so does Ron have them, right now?

Are they showing any development? Some should be about ready to hatch, by now. They seem to turn quite black as they approach hatch development level. Change the egg water from time to time.

LMK if the eggs do hatch. If not, I have plenty of young and can mail some in breather bags.

Ron, what do you define as brackish? I consider it to be almost any salinity above fresh and below sea water. For breeding these guys, I'd suggest a salinity of about half of sea water. Specific gravity of 1.01 to 1.015. Your "pinch of salt' is probably OK for maintenance. IDK if they will breed in it, though.

If your water has plenty of potassium and GH (Ca and Mg) you can keep Java Moss in with them, which is nice for keeping water clear. Except for the salt, they are basically a very easy species. They take bbs very early, but I always supplement with green water and infusoria (a drop of liquifry on some moss).

Wright

[whuntley]

[quote="RonWill"]

When Dr. Goldtstein sent them cross-country to Bill, he had a wet piece of filter floss in a tiny bag with one fish resting on the floss, but no water! Amazing way to mail fish, cheap

urm... I have to ask! Was there a typo or ? Sending live fish on damp floss without water?

Yes. Amazing, but these are a fish that spends considerable time out hunting on land, so they don't need more water than to provide surface wetting, it seems. Bob sent the fish from NC to CA on wet floss, about like the way I sent the eggs.

Folks have sent Bettas that way, too. I recall hearing about a case of a show entry that arrived in a plain business envelope, with the fish wrapped in a damp paper towel! It lived, but IDK what shape the fancy fins were in, after that.

Wright

[RonWill]

I assume Zul is off to his thing, so does Ron have them, right now?

Wright, there're 3 eggs with embroyl development but it doesn't seem to get any darker (or more developed). Any idea what's the estimated incubation period with our climate?

Did partial water change from a bottle of prepared brackish(?) water that Zul brought along with the eggs and judging from the way it's going, it will take a while more.

Brackish, to me, would be a level plastic soup-spoon of marine salt to a litre of water. Not sure what the hydrometer will read but I hatch BBS with 2 soup-spoon full.

[whuntley]

Did the others turn white, or just cloudy but translucent? If the latter, they will develop later, I suspect. Opaque white is just dead.

I was still pulling a baby or two from the batch collected a week before Zul's as of Sunday, and a couple more eggs look dark enough to hatch, others are still pretty cloudy but not really white. Those eggs were laid from one week to three weeks before I collected for Zul.

That said, I have no idea what the gestation time should really be at any temperature. It has been very hot here, and I had the eggs in very little water, so they went from high 80s F or low 90s to maybe high 60s at night.

I know. That's no way to treat eggs and guarantees I didn't learn a thing about gestation time.

Wright

[whuntley]

Brackish, to me, would be a level plastic soup-spoon of marine salt to a litre of water. Not sure what the hydrometer will read but I hatch BBS with 2 soup-spoon full.

The second is above sea-water strength and the first is close to it. Neither would be brackish, in my definition of the term. Both are way too high for hatching bbs, unless you like waiting a long time for them to hatch.

My on-line Merriam-Webster isn't much help. They list "brackish" as:

"1 : somewhat salty <brackish water>
2 a : not appealing to the taste <brackish tea> b : REPULSIVE"

Our govt. used to define brackish as any water with over 400 ppm tds, but I think they had to raise it as that describes about 85% of all US potable domestic water.

I get very quick and near 100% hatches of BS in 1.5+ liters of water that has a level tablespoon of salt, and 1/4 tsp each of Seachem "Equilibrium" and baking soda. [My water is too soft for doing bbs without additives.]

If we had a decent LFS, I could use "Instant Ocean" or "Coralife" salts and simplify a bit. Oh well... That's one of the costs of retiring to paradise.

Wright

[whuntley]

Cryptolebias has been found to have earlier been applied to a relict species only found in fossils. As a result, the new name is Kryptolebias as just announced by Jean Huber.

Please do not continue to use or otherwise publicise the Cryptolebias name as connected to marmoratus.

Thanks,

Wright

[RonWill]

Please do not continue to use or otherwise publicise the Cryptolebias name as connected to marmoratus.

Wright, let me get this right... (rhyme doesn't it?) :wink:

Zul will now maintain the fish as Kryptolebias marmoratus? [fancy name for a bugger who isn't afraid of kryptonite!]

Update:
One of the eggs turned quite black but no fry to date.

[stormhawk]

Correction Wright. The error was highlighted by Huber and Costa redescribed the genus and the subfamily. Here's the PDF.

http://www.ufrgs.br/ni/vol2num2%5Cvol2num2artigo9.pdf

In the pdf it is stated that some sources regard marmoratus to be a synonym of ocellatus but in all cases I'd still call it Rivulus marmoratus.

[whuntley]

Correction Wright. The error was highlighted by Huber and Costa redescribed the genus and the subfamily. Here's the PDF.

http://www.ufrgs.br/ni/vol2num2%5Cvol2num2artigo9.pdf

In the pdf it is stated that some sources regard marmoratus to be a synonym of ocellatus but in all cases I'd still call it Rivulus marmoratus.

I'm pretty sure that would cause no confusion among aquarists, but we have a slightly related problem looming. Thanks for the reference.

This new sub-family and genus are the first of what will be a major splitting (long overdue) of the Rivulus genus, not unlike what happened to Aphyosemion about 30 years ago. Many hobbyists and even some Atlases carried the old names on for a ridiculous length of time. That was not a problem for old-timers, but enormously confusing to newbies, who couldn't figure out what a Roloffia roloff actually was.

marmoratus is looking like it doesn't really have a range from central Florida to southern Brazil, and that the species will probably be split as DNA and other evidence provide new information. Meanwhile, we had better be diligent about not mixing locations, or the hobby will be plagued with hybrids even worse than what happened with Aphyos. and Fp in the '60s and '70s.

Wright

[stormhawk]

Okay for those, including myself, who failed to notice the population code for the marmoratus eggs in SG now, here's the full name.

Kryptolebias marmoratus Dandriga Belize Jan. 2000

I have a feeling that the next group to be split will be the smaller Rivulus starting with Rivulus cylindraceus. Costa's going to have a field day revising Rivulus.

[hwchoy]

Many hobbyists and even some Atlases carried the old names on for a ridiculous length of time. That was not a problem for old-timers, but enormously confusing to newbies, who couldn't figure out what a Roloffia roloff actually was.

Wright, damn right you are. (Ronnie, does that rhyme enough )

There are new publications (for the hobbyist) still insisting calling all cyprinids with barbels Barbus, when the Puntius name (which is itself a huge generalisation of Asian cyprinids) has already been used for more than 40 years.

[whuntley]

We, in the USA, are lucky that the AKA Board grabbed the issue early and decided to standardize nomenclature for the purposes of the AKA and its publications.

They picked Dr. Ken Lazara's Killifish Master Index as the reference, and it is now in its 4th edition.

Many of us have fun disagreeing with some of Ken's choices, but it does give us a stake in the ground to stabilize names.

The AKA web site has just undergone some revisions, which I'm led to believe will include some or all of the collections data from Roger Langton's list of those. The KMI4 species list has long been available at:

http://ark.aka.org/AList.htm

Bill Gallagher does update some names from current literature, when he is editing the F&E list, rather than wait several years for the next KMI.

I bet he would accept Kryptolebias marmoratus for the Dandriga Belize Jan 2000 collection.

Wright

[stormhawk]

Oh yes the KMI. I've read it from the ARK site but for some genus its not fully updated. The Simpsonichthys species are missing some of the newer ones, especially those from the late 90's. Wright, is there going to be a KMI 5?

[TyroneGenade]

I have a feeling that the next group to be split will be the smaller Rivulus starting with Rivulus cylindraceus. Costa's going to have a field day revising Rivulus.

It is going to be a blooy massacre! Huber is perhaps the single person best qualified to do the revision but Cotsa is ignoring him like a stop sign. The revision is going to be a mess---or so I am told my some Rivulus fans dreading the relabeling of their stocks of Rivulus.

We will be see quite a bit of taxanomic tennis with the super genus Rivulus.

tt4n

[whuntley]

Oh yes the KMI. I've read it from the ARK site but for some genus its not fully updated. The Simpsonichthys species are missing some of the newer ones, especially those from the late 90's. Wright, is there going to be a KMI 5?

Yes, Ken revises it every few years.

KMI4 is, BTW, much much more than just the species list at the ARK site. You folks in SG should get a copy for it contains lots of other good stuff. No group should be without it and Huber's Killidata 2000 (or its successor)

It is deliberately more conservative about accepting name changes than Huber and others. That's the way it should be for a large group like AKA. Just as Cryptolebias came and went in less than a year (as far as we hobbyists are concerned) many new names must gain general acceptance in the taxonomic community before Dr. Lazara will accept them for KMI. Lots of Lampeyes are in that limbo region, right now. Much of Costa's work seemingly is losing general acceptance, rapidly, so those names of SA species may or may not stay valid.

Ken decries the lack of any recent re-evaluation of the gardneri complex by competent authority, so still keeps the nigerianus as a sub-species of GAR when most of us know it is a distinct species on several grounds.

That is an essential feature of any good standard. It must be very accurate and quite slow to be modified so we can all be dragged along apace.

Imagine the problems of poor Bill Gallagher, who must try to decide each case of when a newer name should be used or the KMI version. The Fish and Egg Listings in the AKA Business News Letter are a fine example of someone with good judgement treading that fine line pretty well, most of the time.

Wright

[stormhawk]

Wright, in that case I think whatever is generally accepted should be the norm. As with Costa's work, I feel that the splitting of Cynolebias into the myriad genera is justified but many of his other efforts at splitting Pterolebias into Aphyolebias, Micromoema and Moema are certainly mind-boggling just as it is with his revisions of the SAAs. Within Simpsonichthys itself he has assigned some populations of well-known species like flavicaudatus into new species like flagellatus.

Oh yes, the "gardneri" complex is in dire need of revision indeed. I wonder if Huber would be the next ichthyologist to generate some controversy in scientific circles.

But certainly speaking, most people should accept that the fish in question here in this topic is still the hermaphrodite Kryptolebias marmoratus. Even if others decide to call it Rivulus marmoratus it is still the same fish and a quirky species nonetheless. Oh yes, I saw them eggs at Ron's place earlier and I must say, they've got some large eggs. Odd thing is none of the buggers are hatching. Perhaps the old microworm trick plus the crazy chicken dance plus some violent shaking may just make them hatch.