Chloramine and suggested treatment

[cheeboonyong]

How many of us are suddenly facing problems with cyclical cloudy water and inexplicable fish deaths these days? Were there similar problems before? Maybe a poll would help. There's got be a gathering of information phase and if some lead (if there’s really a chloramine overdose) and numbers do come out of it, we could perhaps feed these back to the Public Utilities Board.

I've having the exact same problem as you.

50% water change, 1 hour ++ of filter shut-down. THEN, clear water, followed by cloudy water almost 1-2 days later, invariably. Didn't know what the cloudiness was due to, until read your thread on possible bacterial bloom.

Been having this problem for close to 2 months now.

I don't use any anti-clorine/cholramine products.

Lost some tetras. Not sure why. No outward signs of disease, except that the gills appear to be redder than usual. Is this gill burn from cholramine? Maybe?

Not quite sure what 50% water change has to do with cholramine and bacterial bloom. Chloramine kills the beneficial bacteria in the filter, creating opportunity for bacterial bloom? Actually, I don't really understand either what a bacterial bloom is. If anyone can explain, that would be really great.

[whuntley]

A bacterial bloom is often a part of new-tank syndrome, where the nutrients are there and suddenly bacteria multiply rapidly enough to cloud the water.

I seriously doubt if chloramine has anything to do with bacterial blooms or other forms of cloudiness. [Its absence may, of course.]

First, distinguish between bacteria and infusoria (larger simple animals). The latter are visible at 10X magnification, while bacteria usually require a more powerful microscope. [If you can see swimmers as specks with a magnifying glass, they probably are not bacteria.]

Infusoria are good, as they are excellent first foods for baby fish. Floating (cloudy) bacteria are not good, usually.

One other possibility is that the cloudiness is from minerals being precipitated out of solution. That's a clue that you should check your GH, KH and pH before and after the water change, to see what is going crazy. This kind of cloudiness usually only happens when folks are making a mess by trying to tinker with pH without knowing what they are doing, so is pretty unlikely, here.

HTH

Wright

[elmike]

50% water change, 1 hour ++ of filter shut-down. THEN, clear water, followed by cloudy water almost 1-2 days later, invariably. Didn't know what the cloudiness was due to, until read your thread on possible bacterial bloom.
......
Not quite sure what 50% water change has to do with cholramine and bacterial bloom. Chloramine kills the beneficial bacteria in the filter, creating opportunity for bacterial bloom? Actually, I don't really understand either what a bacterial bloom is. If anyone can explain, that would be really great.

cheeboonyong

Wright may be right. 50% change may be a tad too much. Last week, I tried to keep to 30%, but I must say it's a bit of a challenge to not exceed that. There's just so much debris to siphon out. I kinda get the kick from seeing fish poop, debris and all being sucked out!

I'm losing faith in anti-chloramine conditioners (Tetra Aquasafe, Cl/Chloramine) each passing week. It doesn't seem to help much in addressing the cyclical cloudiness. I will keep to a 30% water change in the coming weeks and see if there's any improvement.

[whuntley]

I'm losing faith in anti-chloramine conditioners (Tetra Aquasafe, Cl/Chloramine) each passing week. It doesn't seem to help much in addressing the cyclical cloudiness. I will keep to a 30% water change in the coming weeks and see if there's any improvement.

I'm unfamiliar with that particular Tetra product, Mike, but I don't have a lot of respect for many of their's here in the US. I get suspicious when a whole line of products is marketed more like "Snake Oil" than like legitimate products with ingredients identified, etc.

I fail to see why there should be any correlation between use of a dechloraminator and cloudiness. Can someone explain to me what the connection is?

The dechloraminators that are known to work, like "Amquel," "Prime." or "Ammo Lock 2," have no clarifying agents that I'm aware of. [Since they all kill infusoria, they might prevent a bloom of rotifers or paramecia, but that's a negative value, in my opinion.]

Chlorine and ammonia cannot be seen, and they are not detectable by smell or taste when both are present (chloramine). The function of a good dechloraminator is to sequester the chlorine and the ammonia so they cannot damage fish tissue. Products that "break the chlorine-ammonia bond" are just old-fashioned hypo, and are dangerous to your fish if the pH gets above 7. "Novaqua" is one of those. There are lots of others still on the market.

Mineral precipitation, like CaOH, CaO, MgOH, etc. can be filtered out and a flocculant can help. Green water looks colorless at low level, but can be cured by reducing nutrients and a black-out. Other bacterial blooms are more harmful to your tank, and are to be avoided by too-sudden changes that can precipitate them. Not one of those has a thing to do with any dechloraminator product, as far as I know.

If your water has high nitrates, or you are using a dechlor product that releases the ammonium/ammonia from chloramine, then a water change could produce a bloom of algae-like Euglena species. [That could also kill a few fish if pH is above neutral.] At first it just looks cloudy, and it has to get thick before the greenish color shows. Look at a white paper through the long direction of the tank to see the color a bit earlier.

In an area where chloramine may eventually be used (most of the civilized world) then always be absolutely certain that you are not trying to treat the water with photographer's hypo (sodium thiosulfate). That's the active ingredient in all the old-style dechlorinators, and they are now almost sure killers.

Wright

[elmike]

I fail to see why there should be any correlation between use of a dechloraminator and cloudiness. Can someone explain to me what the connection is?

Wright,
This is what I gather from discussions in fish forums (guys, pls correct me I misinterpreted anything):

Chloramine in tap water (if not neutralized by conditioners) kills a portion of the filter media bacteria, which then triggers a bacterial bloom of a different kind (?) in the water column, thereby causing cloudiness. Perhaps the abrupt reduction in the size of the bacterial colony is unable to keep up with the unchanged bioload, leading to an ammonia/ nitrite spikes, which feeds the strains of bacteria that cause cloudiness.

Hobbyists can sometimes be willing to listen to anything out of exasperation.

A bacterial bloom is often a part of new-tank syndrome, where the nutrients are there and suddenly bacteria multiply rapidly enough to cloud the water.

This is also a logical explanation. I suppose these bacteria that bloom after a water change to feed on the new tide of nutrients is of the same strain as the so-called good bacteria that reside in the filter media? Except they're free-floating and thus cause cloudiness? Or are they of a different strain?

If this is the actual scenario, then a smaller water change could be the answer to the cloudiness problem.

[cheeboonyong]

One other possibility is that the cloudiness is from minerals being precipitated out of solution. That's a clue that you should check your GH, KH and pH before and after the water change, to see what is going crazy. This kind of cloudiness usually only happens when folks are making a mess by trying to tinker with pH without knowing what they are doing, so is pretty unlikely, here.

Interesting point.

I add the following after a water change:
Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Sulphate
Potassium Dihydrodeng Phosphate
Magnesium Sulphate
Calcium Sulphate
Sodium Bicarbonate

Is it likely that any of them would result in mineral precipitation?

[whuntley]

I add the following after a water change:
Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Sulphate
Potassium Dihydrodeng Phosphate
Magnesium Sulphate
Calcium Sulphate
Sodium Bicarbonate

Is it likely that any of them would result in mineral precipitation?

Yes, particularly the divalent ions of Ca and Mg can form insoluble precipitates under the right conditions. Their oxides and hydroxides tend to be pretty insoluble in water, so the right pH might be all it takes for them to dump out of solution as a cloud.

I'm just guessing there.

It is most unlikely that chloramine can support a bacterial bloom if it is strong enough to kill resident attached bacteria. The nitrogen-cycle bacteria are pretty tough customers, compared to most free-floating or flagellate species, I think.

More guessing, again.

Wright

[PohSan]

Come this weekend, I'll see how to mount the set to the main rack.

Have you mount the set?? Please do not ended up like me. Anyway, I checked the TDS and chlorine level before and after the adding of the filter (1x sediment,gone, 1x 5micron carbon cartridge and 1 x 0.5micron carbon cartridge). I couldn't found cheap chlorine test kit that show chlorine content level (cheapest is S$49!!!) and ended bought the one from Sera that only indicates presense of chlorine or not. The result is quite surprising :

Before:
TDS: 72
Chlorine: not present

After:
TDS:74
Chlorine: not present

I suppose carbon will take a short period of time to "run in" and become effective? is it right??
Regards,
Ong Poh San

[whuntley]

Ong Poh San,

The carbon works by adsorbing onto its surface most larger molecules. Smaller ones like chlorine and ammonia/ammonium are much less efficiently trapped by the active carbon surface, so the flow needs to be a lot slower than for stopping chloroform or larger molecules. Nevertheless, it is active on contact with the water, and the only "run-in" would be to flush any carbon dust out of the filter.

One reason I will avoid the use of carbon in an aquarium filter (in the tank) in almost any form is the fact that other ingredients in the water can cause the poorly-held ammonia to be kicked off and dumped into the tank. That is a disaster just waiting to happen, in my opinion.

Medications you clear out with a carbon in-tank filter can be dumped back into the tank, too, sometimes after harmful chemical changes.

Activated carbon is excellent in a one-pass incoming line filter. I seriously doubt its usefulness in a tank. Even as a line filter, some caution is needed to be sure that the cartridge doesn't saturate and allow "punch through."

Ron's fancy triple filter looks great, except for one small problem. A tap is needed between the two carbon filters so the "punch-through" can be detected on the front one in time to change the cartridges before the 2nd one is also loaded up.

It is hard to get a really clean sample by pushing the red air-release buttons, as the water is just collected on top of the (possibly dusty?) container. If you carefully determine where to put it, to get in the outlet side, you can drill and tap an airline valve right into the blue lid, to provide a sampling spot.

I'm shocked that someone would charge $49 for a test kit (unless it is the Lamotte or Hach professional ones). I'm already outraged that the LFSs here get US$8-10 for them, when I could buy a much bigger bottle of the reagent at Home Depot or WalMart for US$0.78 plus tax. [They may have gone up to a dollar, since I got that price.]

We should organize a group buy, I think. One complete test kit, so you see the color chart at least once, and several dropper bottles of the reagent so everyone can have his own test capability. You can find small test tubes, locally, I'm sure. The color chart is only for when you must know the concentration of chlorine. We should be able to send it to you for SG$20-30 and everyone could have a way to detect chloramine/chlorine.

The slightest yellowing when viewed against a white background indicates chlorine is present. That's all you need to know to take action. My vague impression is that this is more sensitive than the strips you dip. YMMV.

Winter is a bad time for me, as our local Super K Mart only has pool/spa stuff in summer. Maybe Bill, in balmy AL has better access to such stuff year around. [Hey! It is above 0C here already, today! Teena is the only one in our family who regularly swims this time of year.]

Check out e-bay for test kits, too. No bargains right now, but they do show up often.

Wright

[cheeboonyong]

50% water change, 1 hour ++ of filter shut-down. THEN, clear water, followed by cloudy water almost 1-2 days later, invariably. Didn't know what the cloudiness was due to, until read your thread on possible bacterial bloom.
......
Not quite sure what 50% water change has to do with cholramine and bacterial bloom. Chloramine kills the beneficial bacteria in the filter, creating opportunity for bacterial bloom? Actually, I don't really understand either what a bacterial bloom is. If anyone can explain, that would be really great.

cheeboonyong

Wright may be right. 50% change may be a tad too much. Last week, I tried to keep to 30%, but I must say it's a bit of a challenge to not exceed that. There's just so much debris to siphon out. I kinda get the kick from seeing fish poop, debris and all being sucked out!

I'm losing faith in anti-chloramine conditioners (Tetra Aquasafe, Cl/Chloramine) each passing week. It doesn't seem to help much in addressing the cyclical cloudiness. I will keep to a 30% water change in the coming weeks and see if there's any improvement.

Used a "Crystal Clear" product from OceanFree yesterday night. By this morning, my entire 4ft tank was clear from the cloudiness.

Given that OceanFree is a Taiwan brand, as expected, no active ingredient was listed. I believe this is a kind of flocculant, which binds small particles together so that the filter can catch it.

I'm curious if the cloudiness is really due to bacteria bloom or particulate matters, given that the flocculant works. I'm not sure if flocculants work on bacteria.

Side note: the Crystal Clear will remove excess phosphates, as claimed by the packaging. Not sure what that means...

[elmike]

Used a "Crystal Clear" product from OceanFree yesterday night. By this morning, my entire 4ft tank was clear from the cloudiness.

Given that OceanFree is a Taiwan brand, as expected, no active ingredient was listed. I believe this is a kind of flocculant, which binds small particles together so that the filter can catch it.

I'm curious if the cloudiness is really due to bacteria bloom or particulate matters, given that the flocculant works. I'm not sure if flocculants work on bacteria.

Side note: the Crystal Clear will remove excess phosphates, as claimed by the packaging. Not sure what that means...

Good, but could you monitor the situation a while more and perhaps post an update 4-5 weeks from now, just to rule out a fluke event. I only add Sera Florena in combination with Tetra FloraPride after a water change (apart from anti-chloramine to address the problem). I'm not sure if these liquid fertilisers could interact with whatever that's in the water column to form precipitates (particulate cause of cloudiness?) or whether the cloudiness problem has a bacterial cause.

[cheeboonyong]

So far so good. Water is staying clear. But I made an important discovery...my Eheim 2026 flowrate had slowed down significantly without me realising, due to denitrus buildup in the connecting pipes. I had diligently cleaned the filter itself without realising the pipes were clogged. Maybe that's the initial reason why my water was so cloudy all the time.