Reply With QuoteKL, just an idea. Why not try Cabomba carolinia instead? They are the ultimate beginner's plant!
Hi, folks,
Some of you (Kho, Gan and Freddy) who visited me recently must have seen my cube tank which was in such a mess. I had all sorts of algae growing in that tank - BBA, Hair algae, Blue Green, you name it.
I decided to give up the fight and so I tore down the tank this morning. I threw away all the Glossostigma elatinoides but kept the Taiwan Moss wall which strangely, wasn't covered with algae like the other plants. I think it's time to go back to the basics and grow easy plants like Hygrophila difformis and Sagittaria subulata (Dwarf Sags). I kept some of the Rotala macrandra (Green) which Freddy gave me the last time though. Here's a pic:
Inspired by the tank Gomer showed in another thread, I also planted an Echinodorus bleheri. Actually, the Amazon Sword is such a beautiful Echinodorus but many of us don't want to grow it in our tanks because it's so common and cheap. Here's a pic of the Amazon Sword behind a rock:
The tank doesn't look that great but for once, it was nice to see clear water.
Loh K L
Don't be afraid of my duck!
KL, just an idea. Why not try Cabomba carolinia instead? They are the ultimate beginner's plant!
KL, you can kill even the most basic plant if you don't take care of a plant's basic needs.
Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:
I think they are very loverly too. They are the only big Ech. I have in my 3ft tank.Originally Posted by timebomb
Inspired by the tank Gomer showed in another thread, I also planted an Echinodorus bleheri. Actually, the Amazon Sword is such a beautiful Echinodorus but many of us don't want to grow it in our tanks because it's so common and cheap. Here's a pic of the Amazon Sword behind a rock:
Kwek Leong,
I suspect the plant is not Sagittaria subulata and I will bring some of mine during my next visit to compare wiith yours.
I keep a number of Echinodorus species any of you interested? :-)
Best Regards
KL,
Good to see that you work on the tank. When I have time, I like rescape, it's like giving the tanka good trim and shower - all are neat and clean, water is clear too.
Look foward to see them mature.
Very funny, Budak. But seriously, I would try Cabomba carolinia if I'm confident I can grow them. But I'm notKL, just an idea. Why not try Cabomba carolinia instead? They are the ultimate beginner's plant!
I'm quite sure they are, Kho. I've grown the Sagittaria subulata on many occasions so I'm pretty sure about this. What you saw in the pic are the emersed forms of the plant. They look slightly different from submersed. With the former, the leaves are thicker and shorter. I appreciate your offer for more Echinodorus but one Echi is more than enough for my cube tank. I believe I will have problems pulling the Amazon Sword out later when it becomes too big for the tank. I'll probably mess up the whole tank and have to redo it again when the day comes. Good thing with small tanks, they are not a big hassle to redo. My wife kind of enjoys pulling out plants and re-doing everything. She was the one who asked me to tear down the tank yesterday.
That was what my wife said too, Freddy. Everything is so clean and clear now it looks wonderful. But I'm quite sure it will turn out to be a mess later. My tanks often do
Peter, I can't go with non-CO2. What will I do with my giant CO2 tank then?KL, you can kill even the most basic plant if you don't take care of a plant's basic needs.
But you're right. It's about time I try to understand more about plants' basic needs. All my life as a hobbyist, I have always rely on "my green thumb" which doesn't seem to be very green recently. Edward Yow, my good friend once said a good aquatic gardener should be able to repeat his success with every tank he sets up. I do agree with what Edward said as with my tanks, it's always a matter of luck. Sometimes, they look good but more often than not, they look like s**t.
Peter, I have a proposal for you. How about an online tutorial? I'm proposing that you (or anyone else for that matter) show me how to go about growing plants properly. I'm sure I'm not the only idiot around; there must be more like me
For starters, I'm going to describe my setup. It's almost a cube. The tank is 20" (H) X 20" (W) X 24" (L). Take away the substrate, volume is about 140 litres of water. For lights, I'm using one set of 2 tubes of 2 feet flourescent, Phillips 865, 18 Watts. I have another set of 2 tubes on standby which I intend to switch on later when the plants start growing. For filtration, I'm using the smallest Eheim internal filter. I have a Eheim 2213 in my storeroom. Should I switch filters? My CO2 runs non-stop and I use a spiralling glass reactor to diffuse the CO2. I have one cooling fan which keeps the temperature at about 28 C.
I don't own any test kits so I can't tell you the water parameters. Which should I buy first. A Ph test kit?
Loh K
Correct. They need a lot more light than your less than 1W/G being provided now, and I doubt if they will be too happy with your higher temps. (they want 23-25C). No filtration, too, as they really do dislike currents.Very funny, Budak. But seriously, I would try Cabomba carolinia if I'm confident I can grow them. But I'm notKL, just an idea. Why not try Cabomba carolinia instead? They are the ultimate beginner's plant!
That was what my wife said too, Freddy. Everything is so clean and clear now it looks wonderful. But I'm quite sure it will turn out to be a mess later. My tanks often doKL, you can kill even the most basic plant if you don't take care of a plant's basic needs.First, get a safety strap on it so it cannot fall over. It becomes a missile if that top valve ever gets broken. Just a light chain to a wall eye hook is all that's needed, but it is essential for human safety.
You should not be even thinking of injecting CO2 until you have about 3X as much light over the tank. IDK if your reflectors are well-designed and 96% or more reflective, so you might want 5X as much light.
There are great beginner books for aquatic plants, and good sections in Atlases, like the Baensch series. I recall that Barron's put out a fine one, but haven't seen my copy for years.But you're right. It's about time I try to understand more about plants' basic needs. All my life as a hobbyist, I have always rely on "my green thumb" which doesn't seem to be very green recently. Edward Yow, my good friend once said a good aquatic gardener should be able to repeat his success with every tank he sets up. I do agree with what Edward said as with my tanks, it's always a matter of luck. Sometimes, they look good but more often than not, they look like s**t.
Peter, I have a proposal for you. How about an online tutorial? I'm proposing that you (or anyone else for that matter) show me how to go about growing plants properly. I'm sure I'm not the only idiot around; there must be more like me
For starters, I'm going to describe my setup. It's almost a cube. The tank is 20" (H) X 20" (W) X 24" (L). Take away the substrate, volume is about 140 litres of water. For lights, I'm using one set of 2 tubes of 2 feet flourescent, Phillips 865, 18 Watts. I have another set of 2 tubes on standby which I intend to switch on later when the plants start growing. For filtration, I'm using the smallest Eheim internal filter. I have a Eheim 2213 in my storeroom. Should I switch filters? My CO2 runs non-stop and I use a spiralling glass reactor to diffuse the CO2. I have one cooling fan which keeps the temperature at about 28 C.
I don't own any test kits so I can't tell you the water parameters. Which should I buy first. A Ph test kit?
Loh K
My first tests are for chlorine, to be absolutely sure I am not burning the fish's gills. It is vital to know if a chloramine or a chlorine remover is needed. The former works for either, but is more costly. [The latter is deadly if your water system starts using chloramine and you just apply an old hypo-based dechlor product.]
The next in importance (for plants) is GH and KH tests. GH tells if you have enough Ca and Mg to sustain life, and KH tells how well the water is buffered by carbonates. Both should be above 2 degrees, and I like even a bit more (4) for the KH. Some plants can get their CO2 from the carbonates, so testing is needed to be sure they don't lower your KH too much. If you use Lonestar Lapis Lustre (o/e) gravel the shell chips in it will initially raise your GH and KH. The test kits can keep track of it so you can adjust water changes accordingly. Older gravel becomes more stable.
Plants and fish don't usually feel pH in any normal range (3-10) but a good pH test becomes important if you want to set the correct injection rate for your CO2. You measure the KH, which is the alkalinity. It tells how much a given amount of acid will lower pH. Adding CO2 creates carbonic acid and the drop in pH then tells you how much you have added. There are good charts in places like the Krib that let you read CO2 ppm from the KH and pH readings. Too much CO2 and fish suffer. Too little and plant growth slows and algae take over, depending on light and nutrients.
pH can also warn you to change water more often if your average pH stays above about 7.5. The ammonium from fish waste and decay in the mulm can turn to ammonia at higher pH so more frequent water changes are called for. I have had little problem with tanks at a pH of 4 if there were plants to absorb the nitrogenous wastes. They could go forever without any water change, it seems.
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
KL, Tom Barr has already come up with something for folks on ways of dosing nutrients without test kits other than the pH and KH (for CO2 level) so I would not touch much on that. Here is the Link.
A good reactor to replace your spiral diffusor which I feel is inefficient and does not allow you to off your CO2 supply in which a small powerhead would if used with the above mention reactor. The above design works very very well and the response time is great! It only takes about an hour or so to hit 35ppm of CO2 for my 2ft tank which is on along with the lights even with quite abit of surface agitation with my 2 AC fans blowing onto the surface water 24/7. I fail to get this response time with all kinds of commercial reactor until I try this model which Tom mention to me personally earlier on in an email. The key to good response time for the reactor lies in the pump...the larger the pump, the more flow and hence more mixing. More flow is better till the point where the unit starts to burp out the CO2 bubbles prematurely.
As for your case KL, what I would suggest to you is to use all your 4 tubes at once for your 42 gallon tank. It would hit about 1.7w/g which is pretty good. Now, add some fresh dirt from your old filter to the internal filter of this tank. It would help to kick start the nitrifying bacteria culture and help to work on the ammonia in case your plants fail to do so due to you not keeping up on things.
For the CO2 part, you can use the design of the above mention reactor through DIY or get those green bioball reactors. Remove the bottom cap for the green bioball reactor as well as the bioballs. Use a rigid tubing and insert it into the CO2 outlet hole inside the reactor such that the tube would end just 1 inch before the end of the reactor tube.(This is where the CO2 would bubble out and rise up into the chamber and mix with the incoming water.) Get a 120-150g/hr powerhead and use it to run the reactor and hook it up to the light timer. (One thing to take note is to invert the powerhead such that the intake point is facing the water surface so that once the powerhead stops the air trapped in the reactor can escape and not cause an air-lock scenario.).
For the nutrients, you would need to get supply of KNO3, KH2PO4 and traces (TMG, flourish or whichever you prefer.).
This is the routine I would suggest for your tank
Do 50% weekly water changes
1/2 tsp of KNO3 once a week for the first 1-2 weeks till the plants grow in and then 2x a week once the plants start to grow well.
3-4 rice grain of KH2PO4 2x a week
6-7ml of traces 2x a week
CO2 kept at 20-30ppm range throughout the photoperiod. (Very important or else things would not work well and you might get algae issues.)
Plant heavily from the start....your current plant mass seems too light weight. Get more plants in there to avoid startup issues. Keep up with the routine and your tank would be up and buzzing in no time.
Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:
Just so you know I didn't ignore your advices, Wright and Peter, I went and bought several test kits yesterday. I spent a small fortune but now I have test kits for Ph, Kh, Gh, Nitrates, Iron, Phospates, etc. I couldn't go to the link Peter posted so I'm not sure what's in there but I'll be doing some research soon to find out what I need to know.
The thing about test kits though, it's such a chore testing.
Loh K L
KL, you do not need to do much testing except for pH and KH when using the estimative index method by Thomas Barr. I have suggested a routine for you in the earlier post. You might want to try it out. For you info, most NO3 and PO4 kits are junk unless you are willing to spend on fortune on LaMotte or Hach kits.
Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:
My low fuss method to growing plants:
1) no bubbly or water churning filtration/circulation. Simply power head in corner to collect particulate matter. Make sure the current isn't causing surface disturbance.
2) Fine to course sand substrate with Malaysian livebearing snails. Feed heavily so fish, snails and plants have enough food and so that mulm can build up in the substrate and produce CO2 where the algae can't get hold of it.
3) stuff the tank with plants from day one and add some (a lot of) active, high feeder fish luke guppies or platies that will also eat algae.
4) Keep a 12h on-off light cycle. If possible have several mini-cycles (6 on, 6 off and repeat) so the plants can make the most of the CO2 present.
5) ignore BGA, for BBA get a SAE, for HA get rosy barbs.
6) Do not move amazons or crypts, keep fast growers in check. Allow the Amazon to break the surface if it wants to. Letting Hygrophila break the surface will cause the plant to drop its lower leaves and become all scraggy. Try to remerse it and you will set it back baddly as it seems to reorganise its vascular system to take advantage of atmospheric air.
7) Avoid doing water changes. Only do them if a) the fish look unhappy, b) you have to medicate, c) the nitrate is too high (bluddy unlikely to occur). I used to do one 25% WC on my 1.2m planted tank every 3 mo. It was way over stocked and there was no controlling the Val and Crypt. pontederiifolia (nor that bluddy duck weed!!!).
For duckweed add rainbow fish or big angles.
9) my lighting: in the past good sucess with 0.56 to 1.48 W/sqm (square meter surface area). (Most tanks are too shallow to worry about depth IMHO.)
Hope this helps some...
I agree with Peter that the latter 3 are usually junk, and you should never ever rely on them for taking action. Testing can be a pain if you are anal about it, agreed.
You still missed the most important one. In any urban water system, a chlorine test kit is absolutely essential. Sooner or later, they will change the dosing level (usually a massive OD) and you will wonder why all your fish are getting sick (or dead).
Chlorine tests are quick and easy, and the only ones you need to do often (e.g., at every water change). GH and KH can be every once in a while, but one without the other is next to useless for knowing what to do. For low KH you add baking soda, but for low GH you need Ca and Mg that can come from coral chips, substrate, CaCl, Epsom salt, etc. Either GH or KH can be lowered by adding some RO, distilled or DI water.
Now you know why my most frequent test is for tds. That warns of potential osmotic shock (formerly blamed on "pH shock") and can be a warning to check KH and GH if the change is major. [I'm lucky to be on a well, right across the driveway, so have no need to fear chlorine/chloramine damage.]
Ammonia tests are too insensitive to give adequate warning, so I check that pH isn't too high (above 7.5 or so) and that my fish have plenty of plants to absorb any ammonium. My ammonium/ammonia test kit has a least step of 0.25 ppm. Unfortunately, fish gills can be badly burned at levels as low as 10 ppb, or 0.010ppm. Baby gills can be permanently damaged at half that level, causing permanent stunting of growth. That's a full 50X lower than the first visible color-chart step!
Get a chlorine test kit and get into the habit of using it with every addition of water of 25% or more. Use it with *any* amount added if your system uses chloramine instead of chlorine (as most modern cities do). The chloramine lasts for many weeks in your aquarium, so can build up with time. Some fish can adapt, but many cannot. Chlorine will usually dissipate in a couple of days. You can safely neutralize either with "Prime" or "Amquel" or "Ammo lock 2."
Gill damage from either chlorine/chloramine or ammonia is much more critical in SG than in much of the US, because your higher average temperatures greatly reduce the ability of the water to hold oxygen. Damaged gills do a poor job of breathing for the fish, so they can end up gasping at the surface or going dormant and sinking to rest on the bottom to reduce oxygen needs.
Wright
01 760 872-3995
805 Valley West Circle
Bishop, CA 93514 USA
Sorry to hear that the spiral glass diffuser is said not to work very well -- I was hoping you would post a picture of it so I could see
Deborah
Wright, now that a small group of us are concerned about testing for TDS, next would be... how to use it, and relating the readings to our water condition. [our TDS3 & TDS4 meters are enroute and should arrive shortly]
I'm expecting a few packages of live-fish and the last thing I want to do is kill them with my ignorance. Never a number-cruncher, I'll followup with more questions at Total dissolved solids revisited-- tds and test-kit comments
Reality is, things have changed and one can ill-afford to stick to the old ways.
All that wondering isn't gonna bring the fishes back to life but how do we know if the chloramine (not chlorine) test kit is actually working/effective. Would it be possible to rig up inline carbon filters on a hose and must these filters be pressurised to be effective. [relevant thread: Chloramine and suggested treatment]
Personally, 'Back to basics' tanks are Diana Walstad-styled setups... no CO2, aeration, filtration or dosing ferts, like my 2nd Blyxa tank.
I'm back & keeping 'em fingers wet,
Ronnie Lee
I had wanted to delay this post until I'm more sure it's working, but I'll post this now just the same.
Based on the responses to the "Chloramine and Suggested Treatment" thread, I reduced my weekly water change to about 35% and started using the new bottle of TetraAquasafe anti-Cl/ chloramine conditioner. I must say I'm definitely seeing marked improvement with water clarity (I'm talking about cloudiness).
Wright, I'm aware of the danger but over here, there's hardly any chlorine in the water that comes through the taps. I live in a government-built flat at the 8th storey. My block is 12 storeys high. From the 6th storey upwards, all the residents get their water from a tank located at the roof of the block. The water is pumped up the night before and stored in this tank. Any chlorine in the water would have evaporated by the time it reaches our taps.
Some people who live on lower floors or private houses may have to check their water for chlorine but generally, it's quite safe for anyone who lives higher than the 6th storey of a flat. I've kept fishes for many years but I've never lost fish because of chlorine. My fish die sometimes but I've never had a case where the fish died after a water change. Some Discus breeders I know change more than 95% of their water at one go. And they do that twice a day without any harmful effects to the fish.
Loh K L
Your wish is my command, Deborah :smile: Here's a pic:Sorry to hear that the spiral glass diffuser is said not to work very well -- I was hoping you would post a picture of it so I could see
The spiralling diffusor is so called because it has many spirals. The CO2 is pushed downwards through the long straight tube and when it reaches the bottom, the bubble will make a U turn upwards and ascend through the spirals. The spirals delay the ascent of the bubble, thereby allowing time for the water to absorb the CO2. The bubbles will get smaller as they rise and it can be quite hypnotic watching them.
Obviously, the thing isn't very effective in spreading CO2 but it has one advantage over other CO2 reactors in the market. When there's a sudden discharge of CO2 or when the gas cylinder dumps all its CO2 suddenly, the fish won't get killed because the bubbles simply shoot through the spirals and disappear into thin air. It has happened on many occasions with my tanks because I was using one gas cylinder to feed 3 fish tanks. In such a setup, it's not uncommon for the thing to go haywire, resulting in one fish tank getting all the CO2 that was meant for 3 tanks.
Loh K L
That looks very cool, Loh KL -- much better than many of the other co2 reactor products. I personally use a bubble ladder with my presurrized co2, and I think it works plenty well for my 55 gallon tank (well, except that I let it get dirty and finally figured out why the bubbles were so big). Is it really that less effective? I find if I put my bubble ladder under the water flow of my hang-on-back filter, the water helps mix up the Co2 bubbles that do reach the surface.
Deborah
KL, a good regulator and needle valves will prevent end of tank dump or whatever form of CO2 dumping you seem to experience. From the previous picture of your CO2 tank, the regulator shown doesn't seem to be a proper regulator but rather a throttle valve? You will get dumps from such "regulators" no matter how careful you are and will have issues adjusting the bubble rates accordingly.
Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks