Ordering / Buying Killies ???

[brett]

I understand that the current trend is to order killie fishes from states or elsewhere overseas .

1 ) Killies arriving from overseas we have no insurance against them arriving dead .

2 ) We cannot change the course of mother nature when it comes to winter .

3 ) We cannot select healthy and lively fishes . What the seller packs is what we get .

What about buying killies from our neighboring country that breeds them . Is there a bigger risk factor involved in this aspect .

1 ) get to chose the killies in healthy conditions .

2 ) No worries about winter ......... errrh ! maybe when our local sky breaks we will have transportation problems .

3 ) at least the water and weather condition is closer to what we are having .

Guys please enlighten me .

[stormhawk]

Bernard, risks apply to ALL deals involving live fishes or eggs, regardless of whether you get them from the US, Europe or from neighbouring countries. Water and temperature conditions are never the same for region to region.

On occasions, the seller will be willing to replace the live fish or eggs if they are DOA or eggs are damaged, provided the receiver/buyer has pictures as evidence/proof that the fishes died during transit. They will not however, pay shipping costs should they need to re-send the package. It is true that the seller will choose and send the fishes but rest assured that if they do not send healthy fishes, bad feedback can be bad business. This applies if you bid for fish or eggs on Aquabid. As a matter of principle they always send young, healthy fish or fertile hand-picked eggs. This is to ensure that the buyer gets what he paid for and also to ensure that the seller need not resend another fish/eggs as replacements.

As you have mentioned the risks of losing eggs due to bad weather, bad packaging or bad handling by postal workers is always apparent. What matters most is that you receive the eggs as soon as possible, especially if they're eggs from non-annual species like the Aphyosemion species. Annual eggs like those from Nothos or SAAs will handle shipping better but in several cases, development of the embryos can be affected by temperature fluctuations, thereby causing many eggs to actually stop developing and become resting eggs.

This isn't a trend so to speak, it is just about the only way that we can increase the number of species that we keep. Easiest way to obtain a pair of killies is to get one from a local breeder. This way you get your fish and the breeder gets his money back which he can invest in others. Of course if you're the adventurous sort, overseas deals can help in getting you fishes that you might want.

Note however that not ALL species can live in Singapore's climate. There are those that require specialist care or are endangered and therefore unable to kept here.

[brett]

Strom .

Thanks for having good patience and explaining it to me . I am still new towards killies .

But got another question here . How about the killies from our neighbor malaysian breeders ? Is like ordering food from a restaurant . Firstly the breeder and us must have the same book . We just point to him on which page and what name the killies is than if he has stock of it in 3 days time it will arrive in Singapore .

cheers

[RonWill]

Bernard,
Most of us in this forum use our real names, so feel free to address us as such. It makes this cyber-corner cosier, more sincere and adds a personal touch when we do get to meet each other.

Jian Yang probably explained it better than I can but in a nut-shell, if one cannot take the risks then one is better off raising guppies and platies, which fulfills all the concerns you brought up.

Of course risks can be minimized by proper packing methods, breather bags for example, together with swift shipping (think Global Express).

The killie-scene in SG is too small for a 'thrend' but since most of what we want is either from Europe or the USA, that's where we spend our money

1 ) Killies arriving from overseas we have no insurance against them arriving dead

When you established a good trading relationship, insurance is not necessary. Some sellers will replace your losses, provided the shipping costs are borne by you or shared, depending on prior arrangements made with the seller.

Trust is another, in that no amount of insurance will discourage one (or the other) to cheat.

2 ) We cannot change the course of mother nature when it comes to winter

Nope, I disagree somewhat. What you can't change, you can bend. Knowing approximate weather conditions from where the fishes are shipped from allows us to plan ahead to acquire what we want before it gets too cold. Sending fishes or eggs during dead of winter is plain stupidity.

3 ) We cannot select healthy and lively fishes . What the seller packs is what we get

In a way, we're all spoilt for choice, be it aquatic plants or ornamental fishes, that we feel the need to 'select the best of the best'. But since we're 'buying blind', ie. no option to choose, then that's where the seller's integrity comes into play. To ship sick, infertile or 'corrupted' species, is just bad business stragedy (no more repeat customers!!).

But got another question here . How about the killies from our neighbor malaysian breeders ? Is like ordering food from a restaurant . Firstly the breeder and us must have the same book . We just point to him on which page and what name the killies is than if he has stock of it in 3 days time it will arrive in Singapore

Your analogy is similar to ordering plants from product catalogues. However, with over 700+ known species of killifishes, from at least 6 major genus, it's unlikely that any supplier will be able to accomplish what you expect of them (and still keep the line 'true').

Most killie-keepers are, to an extent, conservationist... ie. to preserve a population's lineage and avoid hybridization (hence no 'Shaolin Killie'). What our neighbouring countries can supply are for general consumption, meaning than the Aphyosemion australe is just that... an australe, not AUS 'Cap Esterias' or 'Port Gentil', and a bitaeniatum or bivittatum is just another killifish, not 'Lagos', 'Ijebu Ode' or 'Funge'.

The nitty-gritty details may not matter to some, but it does to me. Bluntly put, it's 'mind over matter'... if you don't mind, it doesn't matter.

That said, I'm not against Malaysian or Indonesian bred killies. Some are just as pretty but it's my personal choice to go with one of known 'population' (collection codes will be a bonus). These trivalities becomes apparent when you sell or trade with others who're dedicated to preserving a line. Possible corruption will not be appreciated.

One gripe tho. Suppliers usually push the males to market, which means no suitable females, in case you want to breed them. One 'back-fire' tactic as far as killie-keepers are concerned... they just go elsewhere for their fix.

Lastly, welcome to the colorful world of killies. You're gonna find helluva long names for fishes so small but I'll bet it won't be long before you have killies in your tanks! :wink:

[RonWill]

Forgot to add...

If you're left wanting to know more about killies, there's alot to be found on the Net, in print, as well as the forum's 'Search' button :wink:

For recommended reading, look up the thread Your Basic Foundation Killie Library.

[stormhawk]

Brett, I don't know any Malaysian killie breeders. They don't seem to have a killifish club of sorts or any gathering and several frequent this forum. You could try your luck getting fish or eggs from your contacts though.

A point to note, yes you can order the fishes via a catalogue but these are usually mass produced species. When you order from a farm or any commercial sources, you will be required to take in more than just a pair or two. In most cases they will require you to take at least a bag of 20 to 30 fish, which usually are just males. This is just for commercial or farm sources though.

Many private breeders/hobbyists have their own fish and egg lists from which we are able to browse and enquire if they have the fish or eggs that we want. Prices are usually clearly stated but many prefer to send eggs rather than fishes. Its just like the "fast food menu" you mentioned, but a limited form whereby the availability of eggs/fish has to be enquired from the seller/breeder.

[brett]

Guys thank you very much for letting me know so much about the pros and cons . Thanks Ronnie thanks Jin Yang . Yes I fully agreed with you guys that pedigree is very important .

Guys there is a LFS in Telok Blangah Rise that is bringing in some killies tomorrow in pairs . They charge SGD $ 18 per pair . Not sure about what sorts of breed . Last heard they will be having about 15 pairs . You might want to take a look . Coincidently one of the owner from that LFS name is also Bernard . But I assure you guys that I am not him nor have any affiliation with their LFS running of business . I am not advertising for them just spreading the good news about killies information around to all killies lovers .

Cheers

[RonWill]

Just to wet your appetite...

Here's a recent arrival and proud addition to my tanks.


Out of 3 pairs, one male konked DOA but other arrangements made. Expecting 2 more batchs of live-fish order soon. I'll leave the worrying to others. As far as I'm concerned, Nike said, "JUST DO IT".

People say, "Make hay while the sun shine"... in my case, it's "Ship killies while weather permits!!" :wink:

[brett]

Beautiful fish . Sure makes me drool .

right said " Just Do It "

You lead I follow .

Cheers

[A.Rashid]

.... As far as I'm concerned, Nike said, "JUST DO IT".

Yeah Ronnie very correct but it also correct to say JUST DUIT... (Duit means Money in Malay) :wink:

[killiesmania]

Hi,

so has anyone ordered any fishes from overseas yet? Since the LFS in sg dont sem to sell killies in pairs....

David

[timebomb]

so has anyone ordered any fishes from overseas yet? Since the LFS in sg dont sem to sell killies in pairs....

When I started breeding Killies, a few people in the business advised me "never to sell the females". They say I'll be spoiling my own market if I did that. Is it a surprise then, that Singapore, despite being one of the major import/exporters of ornamental fish, we never had a Killifish scene going until recently.

The new generation of fish shop owners are generally more enlightened. They will sell the females if they can get them. Many sell Apistos and Bettas in pairs. Unfortunately though, most fish shop owners know little about Killies. One golden rule in business is if you don't know what you're selling, it won't sell.

By coming to this forum, you have made a good start on the road to Killifish breeding. The folks here are generally hobbyists so even if they have Killies for sale, there won't be many. We hope new guys in the hobby will be more gung-ho in bringing in eggs or fishes from breeders living in other countries. We do organise mass egg buying orders occasionally. By buying in bulk, we can keep shipping costs low. But there are risks as eggs often either go bad or do not hatch. The regulars here have played their part in kick-starting the hobby. I guess it's about time the new guys take an active role too in bringing in new species.

So what do you say, David? Would you like to organise a mass egg buying order?

Loh K L

[RonWill]

David, why do you sound so disappointed with the 'business tactic' of suppliers to LFS? Firstly, they don't want you to breed the fishes, period! Secondly, they claim that drab females can't sell... which is true, judging by the sale of fishes I consign to LFS.

Don't forget that you do have a choice, either to take the nonsense or bring in your own. Owing to my penchant for wanting to breed fishes, I never buy fishes if I can't get them in pairs.

As for "so has anyone ordered any fishes from overseas yet?", I think you'll have to read a little closer between the lines.

I can't be 'too obvious'*, penning down every detail in a public forum, but how would you interprete it when someone post an image of a fish (not fish egg) and say, "Here's a recent arrival... expecting 2 more batches of live-fish order soon"

* Some courier services/airlines do not encourage or accept shipping of live stock. Postal systems, eg. USPS and ours, will reject contents declared as 'Live-fishes'. There may also be issues of Import Licence, Custom Clearance, quarantine, etc... (Which partially answers your other post)

How you wish to take it from there depends on your initiative, creativity and 'honesty'.

[killiesmania]

Ron,

So....no help publicly... so how about some help via pm....