lazy woman's planted tank

[joteo]

Hi,

I'm new to this forum but I've been lurking about reading as much as I can before asking my questions. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge freely.

I've mainly got Java ferns and Anubias in my tank. I also have some riccia floating in my tank. I try to keep them clumped up as much as possible otherwise they get irritating.

Most of the ferns and anubias are average sized. But the other day at the LFS in the wet market, I saw this huge plant, which I'm not sure is a Java fern - I only suspect it is, because I see a smaller windelov growing with it. Since it was only $3 I took a risk and I like the foresty look it gives my 2 ft tank.

Suddenly, because of the bigger plant, my tank has gained depth.

I was wondering if there's any other plants that will withstand just ambient light (no aquarium lighting, it is near a window), no CO2, no substrate, no soil, no pebbles (just plain glass) no fertilizers, no chillers etc.

At certain times of the year, I suspect that the sun comes into the tank at an angle. (I only just moved in)

The number of my fish vary because I have guppies and they keep multiplying and when they grow to a certain size, I chuck them into these tanks. I have a couple of cory, one algae eater, some useless shrimp that only steal fish food, and I think one sole surviving yamato shrimp. So I would say the bioload is high.

I have a filter which keeps the water moving quite a bit. I do anywhere from 20% to 80% of water changes with pure tap water which remains untreated and fully chlorinated. The water changes happen at least once a week and also mid week (less change), if I'm not happy with the clarity/cleanliness of the water.

I do move my plants around when I'm cleaning the tank and I quite unceremoniously throw in buckets of water on refilling.

I read Ronwill's post on walstrad tanks but it still uses gravel and soil and etc. I'm also too lazy to go that way.

So, considering all these difficult requiremets, are there any other plants that I can consider adding to my tank?

Right now, all my plants are green. Any possibility that a red coloured plant can survive in such a careless environment?

I would like to add some erect moss, any chance they'll survive?

Finally, where would be a good place to go to get a good variety of plants and where I can ask the sellers questions and they'd know what I'm talking about? Is Teo's farm the only good one?

Thanks very much
joanne

[RonWill]

Welcome to our cosy corner, Joanne. Happy to have another wet-fingered lady amongst the green-thumbed.

From what you've said, I gather you're quite pleased with the low maintenance of your setup but this one got my attention!

I read Ronwill's post on walstrad tanks but it still uses gravel and soil and etc. I'm also too lazy to go that way

Tell 'ya what. I'll do one better and recommend a even lazier method. It's what I call 'Oyama substrate' with 'Henri-filtering' [still in experimental stage, I'll tell you more about that later]

The normal range of low-light requiring plants will do reasonably well within a home ambient lighting. I love to use ferns, anubias, moss and vals but the last plant will require some substrate (unless you have it potted and using shorter ferns to hide the pot from view).

These will do ok (won't die, but won't grow much either) in the conditions you're giving them, ie. no lighting, no CO2 etc. But if space and aesthetics allow, try modifying a Henri-filter from discarded Overhead Filters (OHF). It does pull down the temp by a degree or two, depending on air circulation in your new home. If you haven't realized this already, plants do like it cool.

I don't know the type of filtration you're presently using but since the plants aren't working efficiently (no light, no CO2), it's best to keep bioload within limits. Here's another benefit of Henri-filtering, in that it works as a secondary biological chamber and clarifier (of sorts).

Observe your fishes for stress from overcrowding and water parameters going south, if the bioload gets too heavy, and keep up with your weekly water changes.

Right now, all my plants are green. Any possibility that a red coloured plant can survive in such a careless environment?

Reddish plants tend to require more light and iron fertilization, so you might wanna skip that. OTOH, most moss will grow anywhere... even emersed.

Finally, where would be a good place to go to get a good variety of plants and where I can ask the sellers questions and they'd know what I'm talking about?

I think most forumers will know where I go plant-shopping but that, of course, isn't the only place. However, it has the plants I want and I'm free to roam around with a bag in hand, picking up whatever strikes my fancy (which also strikes my wallet pretty hard too ) The operator should know the plants you're referring to but prepared to add Hokkien plant names into your vocab.

The more experienced wet-thumbers here should have more to comment.

[timebomb]

Joanne,

Get yourself a hose. If your tap is far from your tank, get a long hose. If you use buckets to change the water in your tank, it won't be very long before you lose interest in the hobby. Don't dump water into the tank unceremiously. It will stir up the gravel and cloud the water in the tank. If you have to use buckets, spread a piece of newspaper over the surface of the water before pouring.

Besides the plants mentioned, some Echinodorous species can grow well in tanks without artificial lighting. Mosses generally do not need high light but the Erect Moss in particular won't grow nicely if it's not exposed to high lighting.

Loh K L

[shortman]

Right now, all my plants are green. Any possibility that a red coloured plant can survive in such a careless environment?

Reddish plants tend to require more light and iron fertilization, so you might wanna skip that. OTOH, most moss will grow anywhere... even emersed.

If not wrong those red pigment in red plant are call anthocyanin pigment and not all plant have it. Many factors affect the production of such pigment, mainly intensity of ligh, carbohydrates, cell PH, fertility of the substract(NPK) and CO2. The more the carbohydraets store in the cell the better the red pigment.

It is hard to grow red plant without the above.

Best Regards

[PeterGwee]

Reddish plants tend to require more light and iron fertilization, so you might wanna skip that.

No, it ain't the light and iron. Low stable levels of NO3 with adequate amount of other nutrients would do it. You can get pretty darn red plants with low light non-CO2 methods as long as you keep up on the nutrients and keep the NO3 low.

Mosses generally do not need high light but the Erect Moss in particular won't grow nicely if it's not exposed to high lighting.

It ain't the light issue here...most likely low CO2. Moss use only CO2 and no bi-carbonate as a source for carbon. You would need to keep a close eye on that.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

[joteo]

Tell 'ya what. I'll do one better and recommend a even lazier method. It's what I call 'Oyama substrate' with 'Henri-filtering' [still in experimental stage, I'll tell you more about that later]

Oh, even better. I'll have to source for 2nd hand OHF and borrow a drill then.

The normal range of low-light requiring plants will do reasonably well within a home ambient lighting. I love to use ferns, anubias, moss and vals but the last plant will require some substrate (unless you have it potted and using shorter ferns to hide the pot from view).

So I guess my range is pretty limited. My tank used to get so much light at the balcony and I had a terrible problem with algae. SO now I've stuck on blue backing and it's significantly darker. Brought the algae under control. I'm still getting some algae spots but those are okay. They don't cloud the water!

I don't know the type of filtration you're presently using but since the plants aren't working efficiently (no light, no CO2), it's best to keep bioload within limits. Here's another benefit of Henri-filtering, in that it works as a secondary biological chamber and clarifier (of sorts).

Right now, I'm using a Rena internal filstar filter. I was planning to get an eheim 2213 2nd hand. But this OHF method seems like a cheaper alternative. I'll go through that post in more detail later... you've got diagrams! Although, what is "airlift"?

Reddish plants tend to require more light and iron fertilization, so you might wanna skip that. OTOH, most moss will grow anywhere... even emersed.

Ok.Skipping. Fertilization = more work.

I think most forumers will know where I go plant-shopping but that, of course, isn't the only place. However, it has the plants I want and I'm free to roam around with a bag in hand, picking up whatever strikes my fancy (which also strikes my wallet pretty hard too ) The operator should know the plants you're referring to but prepared to add Hokkien plant names into your vocab.

Haha! Okay. I'll bring along notepad to get those Hokkein names down!

Thanks
joanne

[joteo]

Joanne,

Get yourself a hose. If your tap is far from your tank, get a long hose. If you use buckets to change the water in your tank, it won't be very long before you lose interest in the hobby. Don't dump water into the tank unceremiously. It will stir up the gravel and cloud the water in the tank. If you have to use buckets, spread a piece of newspaper over the surface of the water before pouring.

Besides the plants mentioned, some Echinodorous species can grow well in tanks without artificial lighting. Mosses generally do not need high light but the Erect Moss in particular won't grow nicely if it's not exposed to high lighting.

Loh K L

Unfortunately, a hose means a higher chance of water dripping down the hose onto carpet and parquet floor. I can control pail-in-water balance better.

But yes, laziness has gotten to me already. Yesterday, was too lazy to carry 5 buckets of water. so I scooped out some water and gave it to my plants and then replaced with the same amount back in tank. I think I might do this more and more. Do you think I'd still require the weekly water change then?

I don't have gravel. Gravel needs you to pour water slowly and be really careful. As it is, I have problems reaching the base of my upper tier tank! So no gravel.

I will do a search on these Echinodorous plants.

Thanks!
joanne

[joteo]

It ain't the light issue here...most likely low CO2. Moss use only CO2 and no bi-carbonate as a source for carbon. You would need to keep a close eye on that.

Regards
Peter Gwee :wink:

Hi Peter,

Would you know if there's a website where I can find which a comprehensive list of what kind of plants thrive on what kind of nutrients? For example, I've heard that hornwort takes up nitrates or nitrites so that's good for the fish right?

Thanks
joanne

[keehoe]

Talking about lazy ways of keeping landscape aquarium.. I am sure interested in something like what Ron mentioning about. I think gravel is OK as long as you don't mix any other things with it. You only have to lay them flat after you pour the water in. I normally pour it only driftwood so no direct hit to the gravel.

The narrow leave that LOH gave me have growth slowly but stable. I realise that after sometime, the gravel, fishes, plants and filter would become a complete system. Which no maintenance is required beside topping up the water mark for evapourated water from the tank. I have read from some where that seasoned gravel carry a layer of bacteria on top that does breakdown biological waste as well. Fishes produce NO2, Bacteria convert to NO3, NO3 used by plants to growth and produce O2 for fishes. LOH, RON or anyone comment on this "equilebrium" environment is most appreciated.

Speaking from experience, the gravel that LOH gave me, helps a lot. Without it i think my 10 cherry shrimp and 12 tropical fishes jammed in a 1.5feet tank (also from LOH) would not survife.

I am looking for some plant to do flooring. Now i am farming eleocharis acicularis. But its requirement of CO2 and Light is too high. Any suggestion?

Anyone with experience in Ricia flooring? How does that looks?

[joteo]

Talking about lazy ways of keeping landscape aquarium.. I am sure interested in something like what Ron mentioning about. I think gravel is OK as long as you don't mix any other things with it. You only have to lay them flat after you pour the water in. I normally pour it only driftwood so no direct hit to the gravel.

So you don't need to suck up the scum if you use gravel? what size gravel? Some looks like sand to me. I'm sure those are a mess to maintain.

Yes, I'm very interested in what Ron mentioned. But I'm not sure if it's an adequate filtration or areation system.

I wonder if I still need another filter on top of the Henri B - (alamak... dunno how to spell) system.

The narrow leave that LOH gave me have growth slowly but stable. I realise that after sometime, the gravel, fishes, plants and filter would become a complete system. Which no maintenance is required beside topping up the water mark for evapourated water from the tank.

This sounds good. How deep does the gravel have to be to do this? And what's special about this gravel that was given to you?

I am looking for some plant to do flooring. Now i am farming eleocharis acicularis. But its requirement of CO2 and Light is too high. Any suggestion?

I have no idea what eleocharis looks like! Might you want to try marsilea crenata? The common name, I think is water clover or cover fern. Not sure. Browsed around the tropica database and found it. Listed as "easy" on the requirements. I've never seen it personally though. It creeps along gravel and if I had gravel, I'd try it if I can find it.

(One thing really good about the tropica website is that you can search on "easy" to find plants that are easy to grow and not too demanding - though I'm sure you already know this.)

If it's true that I can cut down/eliminate having to change water with gravel, I'd go the gravel way. This water top up thing is much more appealing!

Anyone with experience in Ricia flooring? How does that looks?

I don't think Riccia can be floored, because they don't have roots that grow and latch on to things.

From what I understand Riccia needs to be trimmed or retied down all the time. Otherwise it'll float. I got some from a nice guy on Yahoo! Auctions. For $2 he gave me a good amount.

Being a lazy person, I don't tie it down. I just let it float above water and get bushy. My younger fish love to "beach" up on it and float on it. Yes, some of my fish are like me - damn lazy. I'm hoping it'll get bushy enough so I can put it with my new born fry. Fry are supposed to love hiding in it.

But I have to be careful and stop it from splitting apart. Otherwise, put your hand into the water and take it out and you get riccia all over your arms. A bit like the annoying duckweed!

Oh and I think Riccia likes high CO2 too. But my tank has no CO2. And so it is growing very slowly. And of course, since it's floats, no bubbling happening.

Thanks for your comments.

[timebomb]

Kee Hoe,

I'm not sure of this equilibrium thing but I know it's quite hard to achieve. Well, it's hard for me but maybe easy for you. The idea basically is to keep a balance between the fish and plants. The size of your tank is a big factor, of course. But don't ask me how to do it. The only thing I can tell you is to keep less fish but more plants .

When we grow plants as ground cover, we usually call it "carpeting". Takashi Amano uses Riccia fluitans to great effect but they can be quite a nuisance when you don't want them anymore. It can also be a big bother tying them to rocks and driftwoods again everytime they float. But Riccia fluitans, being the champion bubbler of all aquatic plants, is a must-have for someone who's new to the hobby.

By the way, Kee Hoe, your tank has been sitting on my balcony for the last week. Let me know when you're free and I'll send it to your house.

So you don't need to suck up the scum if you use gravel? what size gravel? Some looks like sand to me. I'm sure those are a mess to maintain.

Joanna, we only do that occasionally. When we suck the scum from the gravel, we call it "vacuuming". The gravel we use is easily available in many fish shops. It's not the same as sand. Sand is much finer. It's not a mess to maintain a tank with gravel. Without gravel, chances are your water is less clear and there won't be many types of plants you can grow.

Yes, I'm very interested in what Ron mentioned. But I'm not sure if it's an adequate filtration or areation system.

You don't need a Henri deBruyn wet/dry filter for a planted tank. Actually, the simplest way to filter a planted tank is to get yourself an external cannister filter. Eheims are expensive but they are known to last forever :smile:.

How deep does the gravel have to be to do this? And what's special about this gravel that was given to you?

Usually, the gravel is about 3 inches deep. But if yours is a small tank, it's okay to have less gravel. There was nothing special about the gravel I gave to Kee Hoe. It was used gravel which may be better than new gravel as it already comes with all sorts of scum, er, nutrients, I mean .

Loh K L

[elmike]

If it's true that I can cut down/eliminate having to change water with gravel, I'd go the gravel way. This water top up thing is much more appealing!

Not impossible. But you would need at least a 2 ft tank, housing but plastic plants and a loner betta.

[joteo]

So you don't need to suck up the scum if you use gravel? what size gravel? Some looks like sand to me. I'm sure those are a mess to maintain.

Joanna, we only do that occasionally. When we suck the scum from the gravel, we call it "vacuuming". {...snip...} Without gravel, chances are your water is less clear and there won't be many types of plants you can grow.

So I can add more plants (like creepers) without CO2 and fertilization and all just 'cos of the gravel? When you say occassionally, does this maybe... just once a month?

Yes, I'm very interested in what Ron mentioned. But I'm not sure if it's an adequate filtration or areation system.

You don't need a Henri deBruyn wet/dry filter for a planted tank. Actually, the simplest way to filter a planted tank is to get yourself an external cannister filter. Eheims are expensive but they are known to last forever :smile:.

Okay, I guess then I'm back for looking for a 2nd hand one. I was thinking that the Henri deBruyn system would be good and cheaper to implement as an alternative.

How deep does the gravel have to be to do this? And what's special about this gravel that was given to you?

Usually, the gravel is about 3 inches deep. But if yours is a small tank, it's okay to have less gravel.

Mine's a 2 feet tank. Is 1" gravel adequate? Also, if this is an existing tank, what's the best way to add gravel in? Er wait... I think this may have been in another thread. Will hunt.

Thanks very much,
joanne

[TyroneGenade]

In my old 1.2m tank, I only had about 3 cm of fine filter sand and had no problems. Everything (especially the crypts) grew great. I don't think it matters much how deep your gravel is as long as it is filthy. A filthy gravel bed produces a lot of CO2 for plants and other liberates many micro nutrients.

Here is shoddy pic of my 1.2m tank about 1 month after I moved house and had to set it up again...

Some 2 months later the Crypts were pushing there way to the front... The small Crypts that can just be made out in the foreground where from plants sent to me by Gwee and Au. Alas the really nice big Betta splendens and most of the swordtails are hiding. Should of tossed some food into the tank before the picture was taken.

The tank got a water change every 3 to 4 months, filtration was one Regent 1500 powerhead to circulate water and filter particulate matter. I had a little yeast CO2 injection kit but it hardly pumped out any bubbles (maybe 2/minute). And of course LOTS of fish.

tt4n

[timebomb]

So I can add more plants (like creepers) without CO2 and fertilization and all just 'cos of the gravel? When you say occassionally, does this maybe... just once a month?

Occasionally means "when I'm not lazy". Gravel isn't the answer to everything although it's one of the necessary items you must have. CO2 and fertilisation helps of course. I would suggest you rig up your own DIY CO2 system and see how it affects the growth of your plants. DIYing your own CO2 is cheap.

Okay, I guess then I'm back for looking for a 2nd hand one. I was thinking that the Henri deBruyn system would be good and cheaper to implement as an alternative.

I was at Petmart the other day and they're selling a Eheim 2215 for less than a hundred dollars. I wouldn't say that's cheap but I paid about $150 for my first Eheim 15 years ago. So who says things are getting more expensive .

Mine's a 2 feet tank. Is 1" gravel adequate? Also, if this is an existing tank, what's the best way to add gravel in? Er wait... I think this may have been in another thread. Will hunt.

It's okay to stick with this thread. After all, we're discussing your laziness, er, I mean your lazy tank, aren't we? 1" would be fine but it's best to have 3 inches. Besides gravel, you also have this thing called "Base fertiliser". That's like a layer of scum you put underneath the gravel. You have to buy it as scum doesn't come free .

It's very difficult to add gravel to a tank already filled with water without messing everything up. This is how you do it:-

1. Empty your tank.
2. Pour in the base fertiliser; spread it out evenly.
3. Pour in your gravel; spread it out evenly.
4. Put a piece of newspaper above the gravel.
5. Pour in your water, gently.
6. Stop when the tank is half filled with water; throw away newspaper.
7. Put in your rocks and driftwoods and start planting.
8. Fill up the tank.
9. Start your filter running.
10. Wait for a week before putting in the fish.
11. Ignore (10) at your own risk

Loh K L

[timebomb]

The narrow leave that LOH gave me have growth slowly but stable.

Kee Hoe, those are Narrow Leaf Java Ferns. They're pretty rare, in the sense fish shops don't usually sell them. I took a picture of the ferns in my tank today. Just thought I show you how beautiful they can be when grown tied to rocks.



Loh K L

[keehoe]

Thanks LOH, the Java fern looks much better in your tank. I think the current one that i have is too small for it. It doesnt have enough space for it to wave. Once my new tank is ready, i will migrate it over. That would be 3 more weeks (Eheim 2213 get slimmy enough). Then, will need to get some quality soil. Kho suggest ADA but i never use it before. Not sure if it is messy to maintain. I only manage to put 2cm of gravel on the small tank. As the tank is quite small to put any higher. I think my fishes in small tank wont have survife without Loh's used gravel. I got myself some plastic buckle ($2 for 4) and migrate all my peacock out of the small tank. I use these to culture my plants. Using peacock to guard the water.

Got a buckle of "substrate nutrient" and try culturing plant on it with a thin layer of gravel.

About the new tank, maybe this weekend. Anyway i need some advice from you for my new tank also. I wan to setup landscape on the tank that you getting me. While i continue to cycle two more small filter. I think my filter i bought 3 weeks ago is not working well. It does not have enough space for bio-bacteria to growth and work.

Guys, congratulate me. My cherry gave birth to a small baby. Actually this is the second one, First baby was suck away by filter. third and fourth is on the way. I think these shrimp doesn't lay egg, because there is no place for egg in my tank.

[FC]

Hi Joanne,

Welcome to the forum!

I am a busy guy (when project comes) who do not have time for maintenance.

Ever since I had a "gravelled" tank, I had never turn back to bare tank. And for many good reasons:
1) The tank looks better and more comforatable for the fishes
2) The gravel is the best bacteria bed, nothing beats it. As KL mentioned, it keeps water clear.
3) The maintenance is low because you need only to vaccuum it say once a month or 2 (if you need to keep the bed looks clean, otherwise leave it).
4) I can have plants in them.

It has been about a year that I tried not to change water for my 4 footer. The only time I do is when I uproot lots of plants or when I do mass pluning. The tank has been doing great, plants and fishes. See my recent post on "Water Change - less and far between"

[keehoe]

Joanne, how does the fish beach up on riccia? Must be real cute. Nice if you have some photo of that. I get rid of all my riccia as it is really messy and smelly. Mine carry strong chemical smell. One of other reason is my cherry. I don't want to have my cherry turn into "HeMi" as they like to hide above water level sometime and the weather is quite dry.

No, so far i have never do any clean up on it. The gravel is mix colour so it looks clean always. Scum is good things, it help disolve waste.

I use only one external Bio-Filtering "Alife 50, Aquafresh AE-10-50" and no aeration I bought one but never use in my tank. I am using the aerator to hatch brine shrimp. I kind of regret on this filter. The bio chamber is too small and the substrate doesnt have enough surface area.

Dept of gravel: Depends on liking, you don't want to fill half your tank with it. I am no expert in this, just that met a nice person who gave me everything i needed to start.

The water plant that i am looking for :
Something look like grass. Miniature of what we find in foodball field. I think generally refered to as hair grass. I got some eleocharis acicularis but i heard these require lots of light and CO2. I try to do without CO2.
I am thinking of inserting java moss into gravel layer. That might looks close to what i wanted. Marsilea crenata, is nice but too big the leaf.

I wouldn't say the change of water can be completely avoided. It depends very much on the species of fish/ plant you have. But..... Hey i got cherry shrimp x 12 and assortment of fish x 15 in my 1.5foot tank. They are all small in size, but for a small tank like this, the load is too huge for anyone with right mind. I have strong feeling that planted tank should be able to take higher load

[RonWill]

how does the fish beach up on riccia?

Kee Hoe, if you don't know what Joanne's 'beached' fish looks like, you probably haven't seen a betta 'sunbathing' either!