when you by some few eggs - what do you do?

[erikthur]

When you by some few eggs - what do you do?
This question is warranted since sometimes there is a relatively low number of eggs auctioned at Aquabid.
I have read and in the 80-ies tested "to put the eggs on a sponge" as Terceira put it.
Let's say you by 40 eggs of an extremely expensive species like:
http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/aucti...ishe1097221970
What would you do with the eggs to assure the best outcome?

[stormhawk]

Treat it like any other annual. Incubate the way you do it, check the eggs once a week and remove any fungused eggs. That way you ensure that you have healthy eggs ready to hatch without danger of getting fungus.

Even if you paid a million bucks for a bag of eggs ( I know nobody's thats nuts enough to pay that. ) it really depends on the condition of the eggs when it arrives and whether the seller put in alot of effort to ensure that the eggs are packed well and are able to withstand shipping without much stress to the developing embryos within the eggs.

I do not understand however, why somebody would pay over $100+ just for a bag of eggs. With that kind of money you can buy (not by) several more species with even MORE eggs per bag per species. Think about it.

[erikthur]

Some of us where ready to pay 25 dollars
Some of us 50 dollars plus.
That is not the main question. Forget the 117 dollars at the moment.

How many will just treat any eggs as your own peat???
And how many will transfer the eggs to some other type of incubation???
And how many has a bad experience of doing just that???

I might be about to order some expensive eggs from somewhere...

[stormhawk]

Erik, I did what you mentioned. I bought some eggs and made an error in moving the peat out of the ziploc bag and into a plastic container. I thought that by placing them in the plastic containers I could observe the development easier. Had a disaster when fungus set in and damaged alot of good eggs.

Whenever I buy eggs nowadays I usually leave them in the bag they came in. I will open the bag every now and then to let in fresh air and close it after a few seconds and place the bag into the cardboard box that I had previously placed in it. Had a pretty good hatch with some species but not all. Incubation is done my way the way I know it with peats from my own fishes. No difference except that more care is taken with eggs coming from a different climate.

Eggs coming from a cold climate and going straight into a tropical climate can really have a funny effect on the embryos. Some will develop real fast and some just won't. The reverse would be the same for eggs going from warmer climates to colder climates.

Strangely some eggs just don't seem to develop even when you're doing the incubation part right. If you're going for expensive eggs, you must be able to handle the risk of losing them for any reason or having them not develop at all. If you cannot handle that risk, then my advice is, DON'T buy them.

[turaco]

Pay for what you are comfortable with & be prepare to lose them. Sometimes you pay a fortune & never get to see the eggs at all. While both parties are genuine seller & buyer, a lot of things can goes wrong during the transit. Treat every eggs you receive with all due care. Regardless of how much one pay for them.

On the side note, not able to out bid the eggs you want is definitely something makes you lose sleep. Paying a high price & losing them later is far worst .

[TyroneGenade]

Concerning this species, N. sp. MOZ 99-4. The eggs will be shipping in a petridish with the eggs on the surface. This is how we do things in the lab. You can monitor the development of the eggs with naked eye. The eggs develop quite fast. We have them eyeing-up in as little as 4 weeks.

When the eggs have a clear gold ring around the eye you wet them with some oxygen tablets and peat extract.

With any annual eggs the crucial things are:
1) at what stage of development are they? Eggs that are in the process of developing (left diapause 1) do not ship well. We only ship fresh fertile eggs.
2) how you store the eggs is very important. Constant temps mean constant development. Varying temps can trigger rapid development. This is not a problem as long as you keep an eye on the eggs.

It is upto the shipper to ensure on the best eggs are sent at the right stage of development. IT is upto the buyer to monitor their development.

tt4n

[erikthur]

Tyrone - you don´t think there would be an advantage to transfer the eggs to a sponge?

[RonWill]

Erik, I believe Dr Terceira's 'sponge incubation technique' was tested on non-annuals and on species where the embryol development needed to be more closely observed. There was a brief mention here but I'm sure Tony can better expand on that himself.

When you by some few eggs - what do you do?

While it's better to share than to keep quiet, your questions strike a deep cord and it hurts.

Very often, eggs are sold by the dozen and I hated that (not that I have a choice).

Of the 12, probably 3 would get fungicized and 2 would turn opaque for reasons unknown. Another 2 will have difficult breaking out of the chorion (egg casing), resulting in still birth. I may/or may not end up with another 2 belly-sliding buggers, leaving me with 3 good free-swimming, healthy fry.... only to grow up all males

So what do I do? One can either pray a little harder, be a little more diligent with water parameters in our hatching/grow-out water or try persuade the seller for more eggs.

What would you do with the eggs to assure the best outcome?

If the eggs are fertile, I would try monitoring them closely. Change the hatching water every 2 days, lest the developing eggs releases ammonium (according to Wright, in this post). Frankly, I can't do better but hope for the best.

As far as prices of fish or egg goes, all things have a perceived value. Pay if you think it's worth. Skip, if it isn't a 'die-die-must-have'.

Be well & have a great weekend ahead.

Edited postscript:
Sometimes, we believe getting 2 bags of eggs allow us to beat the odds. I did that with Terranatos dolichopterus and to date, I'm still looking for a female DOL

[TyroneGenade]

Personally if I paid a small fortune for eggs I would fiddle with them as little as possible. No, I would not put them on a damp sponge... but mainly because I have never got this to work.

Fertile eggs (which is what most people claim to ship) do not fungus! They may die due to trouble during development or being stressed at sensitive times or because they are not wet at the correct time.

The method we use in the lab is profiled here: here.

With non-annual eggs there is big risk as development proceeds unabated when shipped in water ot damp peat. Unless the eggs are very well packaged egg fatality is the norm. With annuals (even in water incuabtion) there is a week to 2 week window wherein no development takes place and the eggs are safe to ship.

Because of the short shipping window for non-annuals you cannot wait the few days to remove dead or dying eggs. The way to get around this is to ship the eggs in peat that will hopefully buffer the egg deaths and keep good eggs healthy. Shipping the eggs on the mops they were laid also helps. With annual eggs you know immediately if the egg is fertile or not as infertile eggs appear pale (often with a white stripe running through them) and can be easily picked out. This makes them a safer purchase.

Handling either annual or non-annual eggs can damage them and cause their death so rather don't touch them!

While I do not support the idea of selling small numbers of annual eggs (as egg death can be high in shipping and development) with the method we use the biggest problem: when to wet is solved so even if only 15 of the 40 eggs make it you can be sure of getting 10 fry (we have wet 36 eggs and got 35 fry in the past) if you monitor their development closely.

With the exception of really bad gender ratios 10 fry should give you at least 1 pr (in the case of Nothos).

tt4n

[erikthur]

Thanks for all valuable information,
I guess I am stuck with a bid on eyed-up whiteis in a few hours.
So I will see how that will work out by first hand.

Some follow-up questions on the sand method:
Which depth of sand is recommended?
And which is the minimum depth needed?
How much higher should the sides of the container be?
How big container do you recommend?

[TyroneGenade]

Hello

Our sand is about 1 cm at most deep. 0.5 cm should be fine. The sides of the spawning tubs vary from 2 to 4 cm. We also use a container representing about 20 to 30% of the surface area of the tank. Keep the sand from the feeding area.

Prepare to experiment finding the correct grade of sand and sieve.

tt4n

[erikthur]

Eggs that are in the process of developing (left diapause 1) do not ship well..

I guess I am stuck with a bid on eyed-up whiteis in a few hours.
So I will see how that will work out by first hand.

Monday the eyed-up whitei eggs arrived to Sweden from US.
Tuesday I wet the peat.
Today I have plenty of healthy fry.
At least this time most of the eggs survived.